AH/SM 9.10 Index Proposal

Discussion in 'The Comp Buzz' started by Andrew Holt, May 28, 2019.

  1. Andrew Holt

    Andrew Holt Member

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    JHRC just sent this to Rob Park. We want to get the ball rolling on getting this index deal changed for the AH/SM competitors.

    After crunching some data, we feel 9.10 is a good place for the index to land. It is competitive for the AH/SM cars, but still fair for the rest of Comp. Having a good reason to RACE in Comp for the AH/SM cars is really good for Comp also.

    Please see the attached charts sent to him comparing the qualifying of the HEMI cars and the Comp field at the last 3 years of the US Nationals. It is a good benchmark since at that race both categories have large fields and similar weather, and the HEMI cars are running their stuff to the max due to the HEMI Shootout purse and history.

    Please discuss. And email your SRAC rep if you agree or if you think it should be different.
    Thanks Andrew Holt

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1e_qm8bB76iXPc2UGku0-ITRxncZ1qIvU/view?usp=sharing
     
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  2. boostedf22c

    boostedf22c Active Member

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    If that very well put together proposal doesn’t get it done I don’t know what will. Nice work.
     
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  3. BenHolt

    BenHolt Member

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    Thanks Carey! Andy has a lot of time in this, and we are all very passionate that the NHRA needs to make this right. It's a big win for everyone if they can modify the index to help these guys be competitive. All of the SS/AH guys that run up front run their stuff like Comp cars anyways. All you have to do is sit at the 1000 foot mark whenever Wolkwitz, Daniels, Pancake, Bucky, Comella, etc come by and realize they sound just like a comp car!

    And trust me, we know what kind of proposal apparently doesn't get approved....so he pulled out all the stops on this one. Otherwise, we wouldn't have time to work on this because we would be too busy running K/Dragster!!! But we all know how that went!
     
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  4. welkerm

    welkerm New Member

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    Have yet to see the NHRA make any S/SS/Comp decision based on logic or facts. I hope you are successful, that is very well put together, based on data and not emotion or self serving suggestions, it would be good for the class, which seems to be on the rebound this year for car counts. Without the data I figured 9.05 would have been a fair option.
     
    #4 welkerm, May 29, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2019
  5. Andrew Holt

    Andrew Holt Member

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    Matt... Thanks!

    I hope it makes sense to Hemi racers like yourself and also to NHRA and the other Comp racers. Like you I thought 8.95/9.00/9.05 would be good also... till I started doing some scatter plots and seeing the reality of the Comp racing... and what a competitive index would really look like.... 9.00 is as good as 8.75 in reality.

    My hopes of putting this on this forum is that people who agree, or if you don't agree and have another angle, please email your SRAC reps and whoever you know at NHRA. No offense to NHRA and its systems... but in my limited experience it seems the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

    My hope is this gets changed sooner rather than later so that we can get Hemi guys getting a taste of RACING in Comp in 2018, not just running down the track as basically exhibition runs.
     
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  6. RonP

    RonP Member

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    Hi Andy and Ben,

    What position would the #1 qualifier in SS/AH have been placed in the Comp qualifying sheet for each year at Indy?? That too would be an interesting data point.
    Nice job summarizing the data.
    Ron
     
  7. BenHolt

    BenHolt Member

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    I think that is in that data, but here it is, summarized

    2018
    Ss/ah #1 Wolkwitz. 8.524
    Comp #1 -.675. @9.10 index -.576 #21 qualifier

    2017
    Ss/ah #1 Wolkwitz. 8.443
    Comp #1 -.775. -.657 #17 qualifier

    2016
    Ss/ah #1 B. Hess. 8.452
    Comp #1 -.726. -.648 #17

    Data shows that even a 9.10 index, although competitive and a top half qualifier, does not give the ss/ah cars the world.

    We just hope NHRA really pays attention to this and makes it right
     
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  8. Andrew Holt

    Andrew Holt Member

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    Not sure the exact spots... but graphically you can see that at 9.10 your basically putting the #1 guy at 1/3 down in the field.

    But honestly, a lot of attention is put on the fastest car in a class... but really you should be looking at the class average. If 7 guys are fast... and one guy is really fast... does that mean the other 7 guys are slow? If you set an index off the really fast guy... you really are saying hes normal and the other guys are slow. Look at B/DA... just because one or two guys are really really fast doesn't mean the other B/DA's should be dead slow compared to the rest of the field (and side bar to guys running B/DA... you are all super awesome in my book).
     
  9. 71mavlouisville

    71mavlouisville New Member

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    I think Comp is about the fastest guy in the class! It's about the fastest period. Not about the average, that is S and SS. Westcott would have been .88 under 8 years ago with your index. 8 years is a long time to improve.

    Since I'm new to Comp this year and can't mange but .4 under maybe NHRA can give me another .2 as a welcome gift. I would love to be #17 at Indy. But, I think I'll just keep working on my program til I'm the fastest in the class and not just average.

    Ashton Hudson 4373 E/SMA
     
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  10. Andrew Holt

    Andrew Holt Member

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    Ashton.... welcome to Comp! Good luck with your combo... I definite understand and appreciate how much hard work it takes to get your combo to a competitive level.

    I agree with you somewhat... in that when it comes down to racing...Comp is about the fastest guys. The fastest guys drive the index to the correct level... of course fastest being fast runs during eliminations.

    But in regards to adding a new class to Comp, you have to consider the averages. It really is the only way to fairly add a class in with all the other combos. If you look at the fastest guy... is that competitor very fast relative to the potential of the class, or is the potential of the class very fast? If you were to add E/SMA to Comp like it was never around.... and took Skillman's 8.26... and said... lets make that 5 tenths under and let them figure out how to make an E/SMA faster..... it would be a dead class, and 0.4 tenths under would really be 0.2 under or something like that. That wouldn't be fair to competitors with those combos.

    I think the real question is what data do you average to make an informed and fair index. I don't feel this was really looked at to set the initial index.... so I'm looking at the AH/SM class like its brand new. In this data I summarized, I only averaged the TOP 8 HEMI cars at Indy out of fields ranging from 16-27 cars, versus the competitive entries in the Comp field (top 80%) at the same race in the same year. If others have better data to compare... lets discuss and get something fair figured out.

    Westcott's run may have been showing the true potential of the class, or it may have been a bonzi run at an awesome downhill track in the best weather possible. What would similar Comp cars running at full tilt run in that weather? I would imagine the top runners in Comp would be killer fast also. But I think comparing the Hemi's vs the Comp field with the greatest amount of data points over 3 years in similar conditions is better data to look at.
     
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  11. Raymond Martin

    Raymond Martin Active Member

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    429 K/AA Old Dude
    Your dead on Ashton. I've got 19 years in on my combination. Thanks for coming to Comp. Seems like 8 years would be enough to catch up to Wescott.
     
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  12. Andrew Holt

    Andrew Holt Member

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    Ashton / Raymond... Thanks for your opinions. I have an opinion about this... but in reality I'm looking at what's best for Comp. Obviously you disagree with this index... what would you propose as an index (or is NHRA's just fine as it is?).
     
  13. Raymond Martin

    Raymond Martin Active Member

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    429 K/AA Old Dude
    Andrew, I'm on my 13th cam at a $1000 a pop, seventh head at $10,000 a pop. Block was $10,000, crank was $3500.00 to start with and you know what lifters, valves and rockers cost. I was 55 under when I started. I didn't complain about my index. I've picked up over 7 tenths since I started by R&D. When ya'll get to Wescott's ET you'll be just fine.
     
  14. Alan Freese

    Alan Freese Active Member

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    Andrew, the fastest guy in any Comp class has always had the bull's-eye on his back. Comp is a performance based class - not a legislative committee. I have a similar situation as the AH cars. I have a decent running SS/DM car that at the same time is a mediocre at best F/SMA car. What do I run?? If I want to be complacent - stay in SS, If I want to work my ass off and push myself - the answer is Comp. I have chosen Comp this year - my index is no candy ass but we work at it. Not saying your index is good at 8.75 but if them cars have run low 30's I'm saying 8.95 and get the tool box opened up. Like Raymond said - Comp isn't no plug and play deal. You buy the best and pray for the best. If Comp was easy - there would be no Top Sportsman or Top Dragster.
     
  15. Andrew Holt

    Andrew Holt Member

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    Appreciate the dialogue.

    This proposal was meant as a push to have NHRA revisit this index. I can assume **most** agree 8.75 is wrong. What is best for Comp (both from bringing new blood to the class... and being fair to existing racers) is the debate.

    Maybe 9.10 is too soft. Maybe 8.95 is just right. Part of a Comp racers opinion may depend alot on how many perceived "dues" the HEMI guys will have to pay to be competitive in Comp. Or your opinion may rest on how refined you feel they are versus a high end Comp Eliminator car.... that once they are placed in the hardcore racing world of Comp they will "come alive". Or just that new classes have to just work harder than older more established classes.

    I took the approach of comparing raw data for the top 8 HEMI cars ... isolating weather and tracks as variables so that you can compare apples to apples with their performance the last 3 years. Maybe their heyday was in the Westcott years... and if he were to race in 2016+17+18... he would skew my data decisively. I guess that's up for debate.

    Regardless...coming up with a proper number and then getting NHRA to change it would be an awesome result.
     
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  16. Terry Spargo

    Terry Spargo Member

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    I was a top sportsman racer that converted to comp because of its long HISTORY. I could qualify on the top half of any TS event but race comp because it is difficult so if you got a Hemi you won't want any special treatment to run comp.
     
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  17. Brian Landies

    Brian Landies Active Member

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    Nice work Andrew and Ben
     
  18. Raymond Martin

    Raymond Martin Active Member

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    429 K/AA Old Dude
    We have plenty of classes in Comp so a couple of new ones matter not. It's also not necessary for new blood. What Comp needs is more money as evidence shows with Roger Brogdon's "NEW GREEN DEAL". That's the REAL deal. There are a hundred plus Comp racers hiding out waiting for "Show me the Money"...
     
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  19. Bucky Hess

    Bucky Hess New Member

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    So when did Wescott run a 8;22 at indy?
     
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  20. RonP

    RonP Member

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    I don't follow the SS/AH class real closely, but does or did Jason Line build the engines for one of the cars at Indy (US Nationals) one year or more ago?? How did that car qualify/race at Indy??

    Also, where and when did Westcott run 8.22 ??

    Thanks, Ron
     

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