DD/AT Index

Discussion in 'The Comp Buzz' started by boostedf22c, Jun 26, 2017.

  1. craig schuck

    craig schuck Member

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    My name is Craig and i love comp eliminator. I loved the run out the back door, first to the finish line, no slamming on the brakes comp of years past even more. Comp has been and always will be hard. (See the comp code of arms Alan Freeze wrote a few years ago). Thats what i like about it, it takes a certain kind of person. Miss you Freeezy! I hate doing things anyone can do. Why are we trying to make comp easier? Not everyone can dunk a basketball but the ymca league sure as hell aint gonna lower the rim to 9 feet. In the last 15 years the new classes for nostalgia dragster, then sport compacts, then altered automatics, index give back, mine-shaft policies, altitude index policies, personal index, etc... (wow) have been aimed at increasing participation. How about calling a spade a spade. We got cut from certain races even when we had good participation. We have had no payout increase in 20 years. We lost qualifying money and the cost to run a car have doubled...and now we've stopped enforcing the rules and think the answer is making the class easier? Seems like we would rather change the rules than look at addressing the only real issue that would draw more racers.(money/payouts).

    Where are we headed? more rules to make the class easier? Cheaper? Spec motors? Give index back every two years... Pretty soon these cars will have a dial in board on them. Not where i want to see it go.

    How about making things more specific, and put a few rules back in place and enforce the rules we have. How about tear downs for winner and runner up in all classes pro or sportsman that have rules. Shit, i got photos from the early 90's with the top 10 qualifiers out in a dirt field getting torn down... and guess what it was like WWF excitement when a guy was caught running an cheater carb, or a helmet full of lead, or cheater cylinder heads, or even a bank of cylinders bigger than the other side.. That was cool because we all new we were gonna be scrutinized and you better play by the rules. People worked hard to run 50 under and it was a hell of an accomplishment.

    How about going back to class indexes. Making index hits at 60 under and be one for one. Making sure people are following the rules. Figuring out how we make the class more exciting for the people watching. ( ways to do that? -Qualifying that is index based so it looks like racing... and pairing slow cars with fast cars so they meet at the finsh line?) i dont know). and Im not even gonna say we should get more money..

    Just because a class exists for us to race in doesn't mean we have to be silent when others are forcing changes we dont agree with. I have an opinion too. If i cant give my opinion here than im not sure why this site exists. so.. Im sharing it.

    Thanks for reading - Craig Schuck c/ed i/d
     
  2. 377 D/A

    377 D/A Member

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    the facts are brian and bob that there has been a dramatic decrease in participation over the last 5 years in particular since 2014. i am concerned about those facts. i am with you guys i dont want comp to go away, it is literally what i grew up doing, my dad didnt hunt or fish he burned rubber and aside from a few years in factory modified it was in comp. is it not logical to look at the rules package as part of the problem? i am one of the ones who 8 years ago said more rules wouldnt fix it, and to this exact moment in time i think i have been proved right. what is the draw for a fan to watch 12 or 13 pairs of cars they dont understand to begin with shut off first round? even qualifying is a big shut off fest? who is gonna watch that? all anybody really has to do here is say you know what yeah we can look into this, but no you guys say well it is what it is, and we need to adapt and all that, well when people opt to adapt right out of the class who did that help? when nhra adapts and says see yah later idiots who will that help? that deal in norwalk and 1st round in the "shootout" in bowling green was an embarrasment plain and simple. comp got booed for heaven sake. to your point bob how long will nhra put up with it taking the better part of an hour to run 13 pairs of cars? why not try to help them make this deal simple as possible. get rid of pi and go back to 2014 indexes then take a tenth off of them. then tenth off would have absolutely no impact on the qualifying orders as they are but may in fact make the racing part of it better. i am not sure anymore if guys go to win or they go to say i went 70 under? i know bruno goes to win. there are mineshaft rules that need to be addressed, comp used to be a class that leveled itself out pretty well now it seems the way its operated is to make groups or cars faster instead of leveling itself out. it doesnt work. i hope that yet again my brother will provide the numbers here as he has via a group text because it is not a good look at all. the thing is i think it is fixable, i was one of the idiots who didnt think there was all that much wrong to begin with so there is that to consider.

    ian
    p.s. craig schuck to the front
     
  3. projack

    projack Member

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    So basically what I'm hearing, aside from a few people, is a bunch of you who should know what's best for comp is ok with guys who have no idea what's best for comp making all of the rules....just so they don't tell us to find another place to race?
     
    ken reich likes this.
  4. Bob Book

    Bob Book Active Member

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    Do any of you really feel there was EVER any major fan appeal to Comp?? I only say this because I feel we only need to work on what has the chance of increasing participation, not worrying about fan appeal that is - and always has been - basically non-existent. I've raced it for 30 years and really never remember it being anything close to a fan favorite so in today's short attention span world I think it's a total waste of time thinking we'll ever make it appeal to the average fan. I feel the best we can do is increase participation enough that our entry fees will cover our costs to NHRA. It's hard enough to draw people to watch fuel cars in our new Dumbed down America. If it's not bleeding, naked or on fire no one seems to care any more...
     
  5. Brian Landies

    Brian Landies Active Member

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    I've tried this before, but where will new racers come from? Arnie Martel, if I remember correctly, was a fan who showed up to a race and fell in love with it. Racers jump up to comp from super classes don't they? Speaking of which, anyone ever ask Arnie why he got out?

    So if you're talking about fans who show up and cook hot dogs, drink beer and camp out, your right. Aren't we all fans of pro stock? And isn't pro stock filled with former comp racers? The appeal shouldn't be to the casual fan, but the fans in top sportsman, super stock and super street. Get them to jump in. How? Make it entertaining and fun to watch and easy to understand.

    You mentioned increasing participation. I'll keep my data out of it because guys seem to get upset with me for presenting facts but I'll just say the changes aren't increasing participation.

    So, in order to increase participation, you need more racers right? Where do they come from and how do you get them? How do you keep from scaring them off or putting them to sleep? These are the questions that this board should be asking.

    Neff can you thumb up one of my posts please I'm feeling left out.
     
  6. craig schuck

    craig schuck Member

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    Its been a while but at one time comp was very popular with the nhra viewership. I would have to dig thru old digger mags but in the mid 1990s nhra put a poll on readers favorite class in the digger(national dragster). The poll got a lot of votes. Comp was ahead of all other sportsman classes including alcohol.

    If it looks stupid from the stands and people cant understand it who is going to want to race it or watch it. If the stands empty when we run what track owners gonna want it? If it looks cool people are more interested in it. We are not going to draw large crowds but we might get a few new racers...
     
    #46 craig schuck, Jun 30, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2017
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  7. DHOLT

    DHOLT New Member

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    First off I have never posted on here before but I can't take it anymore.lol. It's too bad that some of you have lost your love for comp! Too me it's the reason I race and I will always race comp no matter what the rules are or will be in the future.. We will adjust!
    Comp will never have the car count it used to have!
    Pro Stock will never have the car count it used to have!
    I am grateful to NHRA that they have a class called comp and we have a place to race. I am thrilled every time we pull into the staging lanes no matter if we are fast that weekend or not. The people and friends we have in comp and the time we spend together is PRICELESS!!!!!
    Believe me the personal index thing is not rocket science. I know EXACTLY what his or hers index is first round and I'm sure they know what mine is. It will take care of itself over time
    Let's be happy we have comp and enjoy every minute of it!! I KNOW I AM
    DANNY HOLT. C/EA.
     
  8. projack

    projack Member

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    Who said we "lost our love for comp"? We wouldn't waste our money, time and weekends on something we don't like. But when we've attended 2 nationals, and shut off at both races for them to get the index correct....and we were the ones who had to point out the incorrect index. And comp was booed at Norwalk, and I had both pro stock and pro mod drivers & crew chiefs tell me that it was embarrassing and a joke. And a lot of the ones waiting to watch promod took off because comp took to long, and was told that it was "painful to watch." If that sounds acceptable to you, then by all means....good for you. I'm not expecting fans to really care about comp, but when you have other racers saying it's ridiculous and a joke....Houston, we have a problem.

    Oh...and I was also stopped by a pro crew chief Saturday night of Norwalk asking what the problem was, I started to explain it, and was interrupted and asked "when did they screw up comp so bad?" And then he said "it used to be fun to watch."
     
    #48 projack, Jun 30, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2017
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  9. comp 670

    comp 670 Active Member

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    Oh...and I was also stopped by a pro crew chief Saturday night of Norwalk asking what the problem was, I started to explain it, and was interrupted and asked "when did they screw up comp so bad?" And then he said "it used to be fun to watch."

    This says it all..... We need to go back to the way comp was. .50 under should be a good run and .60 under should be a great one. And no personal indexes.
     
    greg williams and projack like this.
  10. Bob Book

    Bob Book Active Member

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    I'd like to ask one simple question - without personal indexes how many B/ED's would be still out there - besides Greg - and how many F/D's -besides Ackerman. I think personal index has kept more cars out there racing than it's parked.
     
  11. Brian Landies

    Brian Landies Active Member

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    Those indexes wouldn't have been hit if they didn't give the tenth back. And certainly wouldn't have been hit if they took a tenth away. The only indexes hit at that point are the ones that need it

    And by the way, in case you haven't noticed, Al isn't even driving his own car- because of personal index

    And I have actual real data that shows you are wrong. It's not my opinion, it's facts.

    And it's interesting to me that the popular response given is "real comp racers adjust" and "I'm just happy for a place to race" but you are suggesting that a rule change will run people off? Can't have it both ways.
     
    #51 Brian Landies, Jul 1, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2017
  12. Bob Book

    Bob Book Active Member

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    Brandon Huhtala has started to run B/A and if not for personal index in about 4 races he'd be the last man standing, likely parking about every other B/A considering running. This is far more likely to happen now than years ago due to the available technology. 25 years ago there were only a few options in both parts and engine builders so the gap between the haves and have not's couldn't grow to where it can today. You never used to see Million dollar operations parked next a team that might have 75k in there entire operation - times have changed and I strongly feel that you take away personal index and all it helps is those who don't need it so much. I'm not happy that this has become a viable option but when the car count is as low as it is I applaud the fact that they're continuing to try - on our behalf...
     
  13. Bob Book

    Bob Book Active Member

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    If I'm wrong I stand corrected - and I never said I supported giving index back. That was DEAD WRONG - in my opinion...
     
  14. Bob Book

    Bob Book Active Member

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    Having Al vacate his ride shows that personal Index did work in that case - or it would be parked due to all the index he took. He would have pursued a different class to run where this allowed the car back in without the expense of starting over. Not near perfect - I grant you that - but we can go back and forth showing cherry picked facts to back up our position. In the end my opinion is at least it showed the willingness to try and help - and when they stop trying is when I'll really get worried for our future. After all - when the dust settles - we're all on the same team...
     
  15. Brian Landies

    Brian Landies Active Member

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    And personal indexes wouldn't be necessary if they didn't give the tenth back. If they took index away then everyone fast would be 60 under and the 45 under guys would have something to shoot for. Now the guys who are 55 under are still 3 tenths behind.

    Last year Ackerman and Doll both raced. This year only one has raced. I'm not sure how that is good. Ackerman has been running that class forever, hitting the index and winning. And there were still other F/D out there the whole time. Now he isn't racing. Not good!
     
  16. Bob Book

    Bob Book Active Member

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    I think you'll find that Al would still be driving if Doll wasn't available and Al will be back out in another car soon. The reason you're short 1 guy is due to Greco parking.....
     
  17. Shaun Vincent

    Shaun Vincent Member

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    So you will take a 55 under car who has a chance to win because of how CIC works and drop him down to 45 under and now he has a very little chance to win. Don't give me this he needs to work on his car more BS, everybody is working on their cars trying to go faster. Taking index away is not the answer. Problem with given index back is that some classes don't need it and some actually do, but there is no equal way in doing it so it should be all or none.

    Comp is and alway will be Index hits and CIC. That is what levels the planning field out. Without that Comp won't work. But in saying that, Index hits is what also hurts comp. It's keeps cars from going to the finish line and once an index is hit cars seem to disappear.
     
  18. Brian Landies

    Brian Landies Active Member

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    Wait, in your last post you said Al's car would be parked if not for PI
     
  19. Bob Book

    Bob Book Active Member

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    He would have been out in an F/ED or F/DA if not that car. But with Doll's availability he went this direction - for now. He'll be back out - in another car at some point this year. Or we'd have got back to work on the race engine again.
     
  20. Bob Book

    Bob Book Active Member

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    Do you think B/DA would still have the huge car count it continues to draw if not for personal index? The performance of Franks car might have stopped some from pursuing that class - don't you think? Again - like B/ED? I'm absolutely on board with you on the index give back being really a bad move and I'm certainly not saying the personal index doesn't have it's problems but I don't know what other move might bring any cars back at this point. Another thing that's happened to comp is the many more classes available to race today compared to 10+ years ago - X275, True 10.5 plus PDRA and he growth of Top Sportsman & Top Dragster. The pie is being split up many more ways than the past. I don't envy anyone in a position of power right now - there don't seem to be any real easy answers to these issues...
     
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