No Stirring the pot..... Please read and thoughtfully respond

Discussion in 'The Comp Buzz' started by Comp 307, Sep 19, 2017.

  1. Frank Aragona Jr.

    Frank Aragona Jr. Active Member

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    My man!
     
  2. hickeybros

    hickeybros Member

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    well I feel that personal indexes are the greatest thing ever happened in comp,most likely cause we have had a slow car,but regaurdless we all know the rules,if you go toooooo fast you pay.thanks to all of you for confusing the shit out of me.we will abid by any & all changes requested by majority.
     
  3. Chad Voges

    Chad Voges Member

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    I will be happy to race with the current system but I do wish PI would reset to the class index at the beginning of each season. It would still lure out new racers, but keep existing racers from parking their cars.
     
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  4. Brian Landies

    Brian Landies Active Member

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    You guys are right. Leave it alone.
     
  5. boostedf22c

    boostedf22c Active Member

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    Same here.
     
  6. DE3

    DE3 Active Member

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    As Clint said, I've always raced no matter what the rules are. But the above is exactly what will keep a good handful of people around. How many people were either forced to switch classes or get out all together over the years because of this exact scenario?
     
  7. Bman 353

    Bman 353 Member

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    In my eyes, PI isn’t the problem.

    The fundamental problem is, we punish the guy who wins the great round of racing and award the guy who gets a free pass. For example, lets use a FC hypothetical scenario

    Hight vs Hagan- They leave together and run the quickest side by side race in history. Hagan runs a 3.75 to beat Hight’s 3.76. The place goes nuts!!!!

    Hagan has to run the winner of John and Courtney Force

    Courtney Smokes the tires at the hit, John shuts off and coasts to the win. John has a fast car so he and Hagan should be a great race.

    Oh…forget to mention, Hagan had to go -.65under to win, so when he and john leave and no one redlights, Hagan shuts off to save further index damage and John coasts to another win. The fans boo and leave the stands!

    Ridiculous right?! Hagan just won the best drag race in NHRA history, but because he had to actually race someone, he is screwed…this is COMP in its current form and it plays out like this every week. I realize this is how comp always has been, but 3 index give backs in recent years has changed the game and put waay too much emphasis on blind luck rather than on driving skill and performance.

    So how do we fix the problem?
    Brian Landies’ idea would go a long way that’s for sure.

    Those of you in favor of PI, how bout we leave everything alone and take 2 tenths off of PI and class index?

    Or...we leave everything as it is, but eliminate temporary CIC. If you have to go -59 under to win a great drag race, your not penalized and have just as good a chance to win the next round. If you go -.61+ under you pay for that on Monday.

    Every rule change made in the last decade had been to cater to the -40 under guy and look where it has gotten us. How about we try a different approach moving forward. We all want more racing to the stripe, so let’s actually do something to make that happen.
     
  8. rognelson777

    rognelson777 Member

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    I agree. And the only sport i know of that changes your handicap during eliminations.
     
  9. Raymond Martin

    Raymond Martin Active Member

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    429 K/AA Old Dude
    Sounds like a couple of respondents may have hit their PI... Of course I'm just guessing......
     
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  10. Clint Neff

    Clint Neff Well-Known Member

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    Great way to look at Bruno!
     
  11. Frank Aragona Jr.

    Frank Aragona Jr. Active Member

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    Bruno,
    Like you and others I run Comp no matter what the rules are. I don't feel that any of your ideas or anyone else's posted here are necessarily right or wrong but if we are going to call them facts as some have, I do know for a fact that many racers will not participate if we take 2 tenths of index away. I know this because they have told me directly. I wish more of them would post on here so others can see them say it! This is why I am afraid the class would diminish further if that was done. Their reason being that they feel they have a chance to win when the faster guys get CIC'd and taking 2 tenths away would eliminate most CIC.
    Trust me I am a firm believer in be creative, spend the money, put in the work and drive your ass off and if you cant Comp is not for you but if we take that stance how long will it be before the class is diminished. The quantity of people who can afford it, have the time, have the know how and are willing to commit is minimal these days.
    In my opinion its just a tough situation all around. One good thing is that I think we are starting to see the participation slowly creeping upwards so that's good no matter what has or has not caused it.
    Either way I love the class and ill be here until I cant or the end...LOL
    See you at the track!
    Good luck in St. Louis, I wish I was able to go. It's awesome to have 36 cars entered. I think it may be the first full field in a few years.
     
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  12. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna Administrator

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    Outsider opinion here:

    The changes/additions to the class to make it more "attractive" to potential new racers are killing the class from the inside out, and not really bringing in new blood.

    Comp has almost twice the classes it did years ago yet has a fraction of the car count. New classes, new soft indexes, etc.

    From the outside looking in, it appears Bruno is right. While the PI may save the mineshaft hits, the index gifts and the PI has appeared to create more cars capable of deep CIC/PI hits. If two fast cars are close at 1000' in the first round, they are both screwed. Sure that was the case to a degree in the past, but the fact both cars may be capable of going into the permanent range ups the ante.

    I love Comp, but I don't know that it can be "tweaked" here and there off it's current trajectory.

    I stand by my position that if there's a way to get the factories interested in Comp, cater to them. Look at what they have done for Stock and SS.

    I think Comp needs an overhaul. Some of you may have read my concept. At very least it needs to be reformed to be easier for racers and fans to understand and watch, less redlights and more racing to the stripe. The percentage of racers capable of making a permanent CIC hit needs to be drastically reduced.

    There's a big percentage of Comp racers out there that are probably close to retiring regardless of the rules. Obviously they are not going to want any kind of significant change. For those of you who are hoping Comp is around for a while, you may at least need to consider the fact a 'different' form of Comp may be better than figuring out how your car is going to fit into TD, TS, SS, SC or SG or ??.
     
  13. Andrew Holt

    Andrew Holt New Member

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    My brother and I are relatively new to Comp, with a newer style engine, with some newer technology on it.... so maybe my thoughts come with a fresh look after being a fan for many years then starting to run our car.

    To the main debate. My backing of the PI is only because I believe like many things in Comp, the rules were not really thought out well for the long term... so in F/Dragster with a 4-valve engine I am lumped together with 2-valve engines who have (in my option) much more potential to make ET improvements relative to the class index than I do.. and I carry a 1/2lb weight penalty. Plus.. the engines are quite different in architecture and components. The only way we have kept any hope of being competitive in the near future is by the personal index keeping the permanent index in check. I will advocate and recommend to the SRAC members that a new class (as terrible as it sounds to Comp racers and NHRA) be made for 4-valve engine dragsters and ideally altereds. They are the most common engines today... and unless you put a turbo on them... they are hard to race in Comp.

    Do that... and I'm totally in agreement that the PI should go away. Its complicated... but more importantly... its contrary to the DNA of Comp. Indexes of classes of common combos should be relative to other combos.... not the individual. If another guys races a 4-valve in F/Dragster and kills the index... then I gotta go home and work on my shit (which we do that all the time anyway :) )

    **** But ***** The main issue I see with Comp on the track will not truly be fixed with index changes or doing away with the PI. The real root cause is that there are too many classes in Comp and not enough full track races to make guys run to the finish... causing the CIC system to not really work quick enough. After the indexes are moved and the PI is done away with.. there will be some good racing... but shortly after guys will always get faster... and then start guarding their index. We will be back in the same boat. With the amount of classes in Comp today... most cars are on their own island (except B/DA... which is a class in itself to watch.. haha).. and unless someone makes you run a good race in eliminations it will not be touched. The more competitors in a single class almost always make the index adjust quicker.. and in tune... races get more competitive as all the indexes adjust to the proper levels. I say... combine all stick/auto classes right off the bat (with a weight break or whatever) and think of other "only slightly different" setups.

    I know people will say.. hey.. you just said in the previous paragraph you want a class for yourself. I know. But also it shows you the inconsistent class structure in Comp. If I had a B/A... I could run B/A or B/AA or B/AP.... or I move weight and run A/A or A/AA or A/AP.... and that's just in Gas Altered... but a 4-valve engine layout that is probably the most manufactured engine today gets one dedicated class (H/EA) and two where they were lumped in as an afterthought (F/D and L/A). I hope having a good entry level class with engines most people my age can relate to... will make it easy to join Comp. I wouldn't mind having some company with 4-cylinder dragsters and maybe my brother can race an altered one day. :).

    Also... I know many of the old guard might not like this... but anything to make each an every round more competitive is better for everyone.. including competitors, fans, and the CIC system. Id like to try to .500 Pro Tree in Comp. I know people will say.. just get better driving the car... but if it makes less red-lights and less red-lights = more real races... I think that's a win. Plus... I think it would be kinda fun. Maybe we do it as a test at a race in one round of qualifying... or some non points situation to try... but I think it would be a good thing to try.

    Also... Comp gets a bad rap for being complicated. I know many think this is unimportant... but I really think it deters people from the class. When we go test our car at local tracks... guys love coming up to us asking us about our car. They know it's a "real" racecar when we're in line testing with the other Super Pro's. They always say they love Comp... but they then they say they have no idea how it works. I don't think its that tough...but little things make it strange to the outsider.. and I say fix those cosmetic things so that it easier for fans to relate. Fans watch races. Then they walk in the staging lanes and see the cars. And next thing they may be the next guy getting the bug to race (like I did).

    Make the indexs so that your index is the number where the CIC starts. For example (Im gonna use round numbers).
    My class index is 9.00. If I run 8.99 I lose 0.01 next round. If I run 8.90... its permanent. No real change to performance... but shift everyone's index so we dont have to do math. It might sound dumb.. but every little bit counts.

    Organize the classes alittle better and try to make less red-lights.. will mean better racing.
    Make Comp alittle simpler where we can (indexes and doing away with the PI)... will make comp easier to the outsider... which is always good in the long haul.

    FYI. I love Comp and I'm really happy to be here. People love to talk about the negatives... but Comp is still a very healthy class with really great racing.
    Andrew Holt
     
  14. Brian Browell

    Brian Browell Active Member

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    I am not sure you can say that Comp is in a better place with PI, but there are definitely racers in a better place. And actually you and Frank are an example. Under the CIC system before 2016, I believe you would actually be on a 7.33 index (instead of your 7.36 personal that you are on now). And not only would you be down 3 more than you are, you would also be qualifying off of that 7.33 instead of your current class index of 7.43. So instead of you having to absorb all of the hits that Troy took(sorry Troy!) (except what was taken to the class) you are only down the amount of index that you actually took. Without PI the result would be that B/DA would be one of those dead classes, because no one would want to run and qualify on a 7.33. And there are numerous other racers in the same position. Permanent CIC has been in place since 1987 and there have been numerous versions (including going sixty with a zero under lost you 5 permanent in qualifying). In comparison to that, PI doesn't seem that bad. You can either protect your index, or use it up. At least with personal, you are only worried about yourself hitting it. I am not saying PI is the answer for Comp, but I know as far as myself and most of the hard core Comp racers, we will be adapting to the rules and be there supporting Comp.
     
  15. boostedf22c

    boostedf22c Active Member

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    I have heard you say this many times on here and I definitely disagree with you. You are a 2nd generation Comp racer. You grew up around it. So to you, yes it's easy. But what about someone wanting to get into the class??

    We ran a year or 2 in Super Stock, but other than that did nothing but heads up racing. We are fairly new to Comp and believe me, want to learn it. My dad, mom, brother, niece, nephew, cousins, friends, etc. have all sat in our trailer and talked about. We've talked about it at dinner. We've talked about it on vacations and get togethers. We researched as best we can and have found very little information that truly lays out all of the rules of Comp. Being that its so hard to find information about it, makes it even harder to learn. And impossible to explain to people asking us about the class we race in. It's kind of embarrassing...haha.

    Easy is, Pro tree drops, first one to the finish line wins. No penalties for going to fast, no personal hits, no round to round hits, no different penalties based on weather, no different indexes for qualifying and racing and all the other nuances of Comp. I realize that isn't Comp, just stating an example of "easy" to understand.

    Hell, my dad showed up to US nationals with a article he printed out from Dragzine about how Comp works. And we all referenced it during qualifying and into eliminations. It's actually the best piece of information we have found out there. And it was written by a 3rd party publication. Not NHRA.

    We still don't completely understand it. And I really don't think that everyone of my family members and friends are dumb....haha.
     
    #75 boostedf22c, Sep 26, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2017
  16. rognelson777

    rognelson777 Member

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    Frank. You did not address the temporary hits that was brunos main point. I think bruno is right on with that.
    Leave indexes where they are. Personal can only be used up once by each driver. If you take .05 personal in 1 car and you switch classes you will only have .05 personal in new class. Use up all personal and you are done getting personal in any class
     
  17. Frank Aragona Jr.

    Frank Aragona Jr. Active Member

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    I think its spelled out pretty clearly in the NHRA documents but there are many racers on this site that can answer any specific questions and would be glad to including myself.
     
  18. Frank Aragona Jr.

    Frank Aragona Jr. Active Member

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    Roger you have me confused about what you're saying.
     
  19. boostedf22c

    boostedf22c Active Member

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    Again you've let me know that it's clear and easy. And I've let you know that I feel that it isn't. So lets get that behind us....haha

    I would like to have a better understanding so I can try and educate others about the class. If it's clearly laid out somewhere, PLEASE send me the link.

    The cool and sad part is, everyone I know that's been to the track with us thinks the class is awesome. Then when I try and explain it they loose interest rather quickly.

    This is the ONLY document I've found that NHRA has posted. Unless I'm missing something.

    http://promod.nhra.com/Userfiles/File/Tech/NHRA Competition Eliminator Competition Index Control 2017.pdf
     
    #79 boostedf22c, Sep 26, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2017
  20. Bman 353

    Bman 353 Member

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    Frankie, we’re buds and I know how much time you put into promoting comp and I appreciate it! I'm sure you do have people telling you they will quit if they don't get their way, just as they have said they will show up if we change the rules to suit their needs. I've been anxiously waiting for them to make their debut or comeback or whatever?! ...still waiting...

    I think it is naive to think that for every racer we have gained from all the rule changes we haven't lost as many or more as a direct result of them. There are also racers who have supported Comp for many years that won't come back with the new status quo.

    I can offer two facts: I sat in the booth calling 4 rounds of comp for the Sportsman tv show from Reading. When we had side by side racing it looked awesome! Unfortunately, we had a bunch of runs with two cars coasting from half track, lets just say it didn't look good.

    The other, I have asked numerous sportsman racers with the resources to run comp, why they don't give it a try? Time and time again I'm told "I could never race comp, because I wouldn't want to be forced to shut off all the time."

    We need to find a way to make races to the stripe the norm rather than the exception. My suggestions is we qualify off of PI (this is a no brainer) and we leave everything else alone, but do away with temporary hits. The argument about the -.40 under guy hoping others hit their index, is simple. It’s a performance based class, work on your combo and you’ll be competitive. Mine blew up every other time I stepped on the throttle for the last 3 years, but guess what, I worked on it and I’m competitive.
     
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