Sunoco vs. VP Fuel

Discussion in 'The Comp Buzz' started by Frank Aragona Jr., Apr 29, 2015.

  1. Frank Aragona Jr.

    Frank Aragona Jr. Active Member

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    We have found many troubles with the new specified fuel. I was wondering if we are one of few or many are finding the same throughout the country.
     
  2. comp 670

    comp 670 Active Member

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    We have only ran it once but had a heck of a time trying to get it tuned in and running even close to as good as VP did.

    To this day I don't understand why the other sportsman classes can still run VP but we cannot in Comp? NHRA REALLY needs to look at this and let us go back to VP. One big problem I have with Sunoco is even being able to BUY it around here. Nobody stocks it and it takes forever to get it.

    I talked to four different Pro Stock teams at Vegas and they ALL said they absolutely hate the new fuel. One told me they are running 3 to 4* more timing to even get it to burn at all.... Not good.
     
  3. Charlie Yannetti

    Charlie Yannetti Well-Known Member

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    NHRA DOESN"T NEED TO LOOK AT ANYTHING!!!.. they need to give Sunoco their "BUY IN" money back, then kick them to the curb.. this was all about quick cash.. I don't care where you're from, or how stupid they think you are.. that's the bottom line.. you were sold out for an inferior product.. how you can make a petroleum based fuel the same as a synthetic fuel is beyond me..

    Reputible Pro Stock engine builders are finding that SR-18 is a solid 20 to 25 hp down from C-25.. ISN'T ANYBODY LISTENING???.. or is this just a way to slow Pro Stock down a tenth???

    In Comp cars that I've been working on, I'm up 1 to 2 degrees of timing, and down 6 to 8 jet sizes, and the motors still aren't happy.. the stuff just doesn't burn.. take the fuel bowls off, and they feel like they have WD40 in them.... ABSOLUTE CRAP!!!!!

    NOW!!.. shall we get into the fuel check issues.. although I didn't get to go to the D1 race at VMP, I was told by a reliable source that one of the faster cars was told they failed fuel check, and when they questioned the test, they were told that they passed.. THERE IS NO RELIABLE TESTING METHODS FOR THIS FUEL!!!.. why bother with fuek check.. since there is no accurate testing, I might as well run C-25, and just say it's SR-18.. everybody passes, RIGHT??.. or maybe I'm a bit tardy with this idea, and it has already been implimented... I won't tell you where the info came from, but I will tell you that at a recent National Event, Pro Stock did run C-25, because they couldn't get any drum of SR-18 to check EVEN CLOSE to what it is supposed to be.. has anyone, other than me, compared the specs of SR-18 to the specs of C-25??... close only counts in horseshoes and hand-grenades, and this ain't even close..

    This fuel deal was a disasterous endeavor from the get go.. it was not properly introduced, to my knowledge.. and should be immediately replaced.. and I will say it to anyone that asks.. I mean, how many Pro Stock and/or Comp teams were provided with SR-18, at least one year ago, to test or dyno with.. COME ON, step up.. HOW MANY??.. and yes, I did say a year ago, or at least prior to NHRA inking the deal with Sunoco..

    NOTE TO NHRA: your fuel decision has damaged the two most innovative classes in motorsports today, Pro Stock and Comp Eliminator.. time to man-up, and do the right thing.. VP C-25 is an easy fix to this problem.. GET TO IT!!!
     
  4. rognelson777

    rognelson777 Member

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    Frank, prostocks still having problems with fuel. On yellowbullet there is a prostock thread and a couple of respected builders for elite and madcap post info on there. They said there were still problems with the fuel right out of the trailer at the Vegas nationals and even issues drum to drum. one comment was over 20HP difference in a prostock engine from 1 fuel sample to another on the dyno with no changes to engine.
     
  5. goneracin

    goneracin Member

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    That was me. Im still seeing issues with this shit. I refer to it as liquid dog shit...:eek:
    The biggest thing that scares me is the inconsistency. If they give us the same thing every time, we will figure it out. If one batch wants .008 less jet and 2-2.5 degrees more timing, the scary thing is the next drum may only want 1 degree more and .004 less jet and you burn your shit up.
    Or you go to the track way safe, and work the tuneup, so it takes 3-4 passes to get it close to happy. It burns like kerosene, thats what Ive always thought from the first time i saw it.
    Funny thing is the first sample drum I was given about october last year, was within 3 or so from C25, and only wanted about .5 degrees timing, and about .003 less jet.
    Next drum was off 25, and wanted 2 degrees and .010 less jet, and was full of sludge in the drum. I spent a whole weekend suicidal thinking i F'ed up my best piece because it was 25 down. Worked on it all weekend, until i put a different batch of fuel in it, and it came right back.
    Like PS isnt hard enough already, lets add to the ulcers and sleepless nights by giving us this shit.
    And passing/failing fuel check is another fun bonus with this shit.

    BTW, I now dyno with C-25 90% of the time, unless im trying to learn something different that fuel might alter. I can trust the c25.
    Bob
     
  6. Pete Hanratty

    Pete Hanratty Member

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    Sr18

    It appears that Sunoco has missed the mark on the introduction of the SR18 fuel. NHRA Pro stock and Competition Eliminator are the two classes that could least afford introducing a rule change ( mandatory use of SR18 ) that would drive:
    - An increase in cost
    - An increase in parts failure
    - An increase in required dyno and track testing
    As well as a decrease in car performance and even more importantly a decrease in car counts.

    The pro teams have a hard time affording the parts carnage, how is a sportsman team supposed to absorb the hit? Many Comp Eliminator teams put everything they have into one motor. A parts failure can put a team out of competition for months or sometimes a season. It would appear that this fuel as currently being supplied to racers has been detrimental to the health of these two categories.

    At first I chalked the negative talk up to a case of “ who moved my cheese”. I realize racers are not usually excited about change. But when former Class Champions, and Professional engine builders who have the knowledge to make 3 hp per cube are reaching an unacceptable level of frustration. Something has to give. And that is without even getting into the fiasco that Fuel testing has become.

    I really don’t think those outside of these two categories understand the depths of despair that the competitors have reached! Why has the drag racing media been hands off on this subject? I think it is time someone took an in depth look into whether this is fear of change or a real problem that needs to be dealt with.

    Pete Hanratty A/DA 189
     
  7. Charlie Yannetti

    Charlie Yannetti Well-Known Member

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    Very well stated, Pete....
     
  8. comp 670

    comp 670 Active Member

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    This is the MAIN reason it should not be required in comp. Some classes in comp run alcohol and they have lost no performance yet those of us who HAVE to run SR-18 are now down on power. (and therefore index) How is that fair? At least in PS they ALL have to run it. (still does not make it right though)
     
  9. DE3

    DE3 Active Member

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    And to add insult to injury, we are still racing against classes allowed to run methanol, further widening the discrepancy and giving those classes a bigger advantage. In all the years I've been involved, I've never heard so many negative comments(like people parking cars), or heard of so many issues, with any other single rule change ever before. I enjoy the class, but if I am one who burns up a piece, it will be one less car out there. And there are plenty more like me.
     
  10. Rob Harrison

    Rob Harrison Well-Known Member

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    " Funny thing is the first sample drum I was given about October last year, was within 3 or so from C25, and only wanted about .5 degrees timing, and about .003 less jet.
    Next drum was off 25, and wanted 2 degrees and .010 less jet, and was full of sludge in the drum. I spent a whole weekend suicidal thinking i F'ed up my best piece because it was 25 down. Worked on it all weekend, until i put a different batch of fuel in it, and it came right back. "

    BTW, I now dyno with C-25 90% of the time, unless im trying to learn something different that fuel might alter. I can trust the c25.
    Bob[/QUOTE]


    This begs the question , What has Sunoco got to say about this ? Forget NHRA , the gas is the problem , as Charlie said ," How can you compare a petroleum fuel to a synthetic fuel ? " It's almost as bad as making everyone switch back to petroleum oil from synthetic.....there would be a lot of engine destruction . Sonoco needs to address this for ProStock , come up with a new fuel or fix the problem fuel , this is insane , Comp should be allowed out , if nothing else , but P/S for the $millions they have invested deserve a little more respect.....
     
  11. jmarkaudio

    jmarkaudio New Member

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    Read thru my posts here.
    http://www.insidecompracing.com/showthread.php?t=10551&page=3
    http://www.insidecompracing.com/showthread.php?t=10582

    The best I can suggest is when running an annular booster look at inserts with more smaller holes. With downlegs use a larger center hole and try a smaller fuel passage when allowed. With FI go up on the fuel pressure to create a higher pressure drop. For those that are restricted work on engine temp, try going up a few degrees. Figure out how to warm the fuel a little. It's about finding ways to make a fuel that does not vaporize as easy atomize better so it will improve vaporization. Burn speed is related to how well the fuel is vaporized, why timing has to be adjusted. Unfortunately the consistency has been poor making tuning a chase from batch to batch...
     
  12. JoshLee769

    JoshLee769 New Member

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    The SR18 is a horrible product. I was planning on running a full race schedule this year, until I ran the Sunoco fuel. I could not get a full lap on the stuff without problem. I tried every set of carbs I had to get my engine to stay lit in high gear with SR18. I changed timing as much as I dared, but nothing really fixed the problem. The problem is the fuel, and the fuel sucks! The one full lap I did make in testing pushed a head gasket out. So now I will only test with C25. I can't afford to melt my stuff down running crappy Sunoco fuel.

    I seriously thought about running C25 and just let it fail fuel check every run, just like SR18 does. I don't mind paying more for C25 as it works and will not cause my engine and everything that is connected to it to self destruct. Four cylinders are hard enough on parts with a quality fuel, that does not detonate.

    I do not know how the people at Sunoco can stand by there product with any sort of pride. The product they are forcing on us is disgusting. I could not sell a product so lacking in quality, like SR18 and feel good about it. They may have bought there way into NHRA's admiration but they sure as hell don't have mine.
     
  13. Greg Hogue

    Greg Hogue Member

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    Pro Stock does not seem to be having any of these problems , Face it the Sonoco fuel is here to stay and nothing will change it. It does not matter if they make us run regular unleaded, everyone has to run the same fuel , just like everyone has to run the same track
     
  14. c/a 76

    c/a 76 Member

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    I've made 15 runs on sr-18 and not once got off the starting line without some type of fuel issue. Made several runs with fuel from different cans and some would miss and some wouldn't. Instead of being out racing now I have to find bracket races to test at instead of spending 2k a race in expenses to chase a fuel problem. We are NOT pro stock!!! We are sportsman racers with sportsman resources. We do not have the luxury to spend everyday on the dyno and 100's of runs to get this figured out. We all have F****n jobs and families. Who can we contact as a group or through our division reps to get this resolved? Just talking about it on this forum won't get us anywhere!!
     
  15. bvb racing

    bvb racing Member

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    how about it Frankie , is there a avenue to go down with NHRA to halt the use of sr-18? How can we as a group get a consolidated message to the powers that be . I am not saying we will never use it but until they can get it consistent and not damaging our engines we shouldn't be forced to use it. Frank I am one of the newer kids on the block and love racing comp but I am really thinking about sitting out most of the season this year and only do very local races.We all know what it costs to move our operations from track to track,its kinda tough to go racing when you are not comfortable with your power because of the fuel and the chance of engine damage due to the fuel.I know most of us are on limited budgets .


    Bob Fitzsimmons E/AA
     
  16. goneracin

    goneracin Member

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    Go back and reread my post on page one
    We run PS, and myself, along with every other engine builder Ive talked to, have the same issues.
    The stuff is junk. but if it were consistent junk we would figure it out. its not consistent. Hell fresh drums on the fuel trailer wont pass fuel check right at the national event. If they cant make it pass, and NHRA says we arent going to flunk anyone, do you think maybe people might get creative with blending their own?
    As Ive said, get the shit to be consistent, and we will get it. Unfortunately its not.

    There have been a few heated discussions with Sunoco, and their answer is "we are working on it".
    We just deal with what we have to work with and move on
     
  17. Stephen Szupka

    Stephen Szupka New Member

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    The biggest issue here is the costs associated with possible engine damage which is going to cause teams to park their stuff or sit out to regroup. Comp needs more cars right now and this will just drive them away. You are already seeing that a possiblity with some of the posts above. We are a SPORTSMAN class. We don't have the time, money, and resources like Pro Stock for extra testing, extra dyno time, and burning up engines. Every other sportsman class can run VP. We still run VP in the Stocker and Super Comp cars. We have made over 40 runs this season between both Comp cars already this season and have not had one single clean run without some type of fuel related tune up issue, sometimes worse than others including one engine change. Sunoco can have SR18 in Pro Stock and PSB. NHRA needs to see this is going to cause a car count issue due to broken parts and over all frustration which in the end is less $$$$$$ for NHRA and another huge blow to Comp.
     
  18. Frank Aragona Jr.

    Frank Aragona Jr. Active Member

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    Hi Greg,

    I think you may find you are wrong if you talk to most of the Pro Stock and Pro Stock Bike teams.
     
  19. Frank Aragona Jr.

    Frank Aragona Jr. Active Member

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    Hi Steve,
    I think talking about it on this forum helps. This is one of the things that this forum should be used for in my opinion. I started the thread to get the racers that are currently racing and dealing with this issue to speak up. Maybe we can help each other and the class. Is this really a bad fuel? If NHRA does see that there is a big issue here and its not just some guys bitching I think they will help. NHRA does view this site now and again.
     
  20. Pete Hanratty

    Pete Hanratty Member

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    Sr18

    Greg, we have to understand that the PRO Stock guys are professionals. And they do not want to bite the hand that feeds them. For that reason I believe that the majority of the fuel discussions have taken place in private. But I know for a fact that the PRO teams would not agree with your statement that they have not been affected by the fuel. I am not trying to pick a fight with you either. Just hoping that this issue can resolved before we lose any comp cars due to engine failures due to fuel related issues. The following is copied from Allen Johnsons facebook page.

    "The same bug that bit No. 6 starter Allen Johnson in his final qualifying run on Saturday occurred again in eliminations, resulting in a premature to end to the “Magneti Marelli Offered by Mopar” Dodge Dart Pro Stock driver’s day. A bit slower off the starting line than first-round opponent Drew Skillman, Johnson was making up ground quickly with a .989 60-ft mark, his fastest 60-ft time of the weekend. Unfortunately, fuel problems again led to a misfire, causing Johnson to p...ush in the clutch early, snuffing out the 2013 and 2014 Gatornationals champ’s hopes of a third consecutive event victory.
    “We were on our best run of the weekend but our fuel issues bit us again just like it did on our final qualifying run, only this time we dropped a valve and tore the motor up,” said Johnson, who announced this weekend that Richie Stevens Jr. will join his J&J Racing team for at least 10 events this season. “The fuel is significantly different this year and everyone has been fighting it and trying to find a solution. We thought we had it licked but the hot and humid air made it rear its ugly head again. Dry air in Pomona and Phoenix made it less of an issue at those tracks. We’re going testing in Charlotte this week to try to work it out.”

    That's two motors in one weekend. If that happens to me. I will be done for the year. Maybe forever, because sooner of later, banging your head against a wall starts to hurt!

    Pete Hanratty A/DA 189
     
    #20 Pete Hanratty, May 1, 2015
    Last edited: May 1, 2015

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