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Let's Explain Comp

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MrRich

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Nov 9, 2007
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Many of the posts on this site have to do with people fleeing the stands because they do not understand, or appreciating COMP. A lot of you know me; I’m the short old guy that helps Charlie Watson, D-4. I’ve been a racer since 68 and still ride my motorcycle in D-4.
I appreciate Comp, but am far from understanding all the possibilities. I may be the perfect dummy. If you can explain Comp to me, maybe others will also understand.
From reading and participating in this web site for the last couple of years I have learned a lot of things and met a lot of people. Some are extremely smart, others not. Some are wordsmiths, some are numbers people. The thing I’ve come to admire is common in America, the guy that makes $8.90 per hour can tell you if his paycheck is right after working 42-1/2 hours, but he will also tell you he doesn’t do math. In the Comp pits, the guy that can’t speak a complete sentence can explain the most detailed hidden rule and is an expert about HP/CI.
I f I have learned nothing else it is that pounds per cubic inch, in your category is king. Of course the corollary is HP per CI.
How about using this thread to educate Rich and create some sort of a chart, as I see it to explain the possible classes.
Let me jump right in and probably show my ignorance. First of course is the alphabet. Lets start with the most popular letter, I don’t even know the answer to that question, then set the CI limits, then the possible combos, one carb or two, auto or standard, S, M, A, N, T, …..etc..
If we can do one class and explain all the possibilities then maybe, via a flowchart we can expand this to all classes. Maybe even consolidate it on to a single sheet of paper that might be the flip side of a Hero card.
I don’t know if anyone will participate, but I think all things are possible. If you want people in the stands they have to understand the intricacies of the class. Ultimately we could create a new breed of drag race fans that are “Elitists” because they understand Comp. They would be the bleacher bums of the drag strip.
I think if we can combine the brains of Patrick Hale and Steve Holloway, we can produce a concise document that is understandable.
 
S, M, A, N, T . . .

Mr Rich - thanks for the personal challenge! I will "ante up" an idea.

I have been keeping track of the "chart" you describe every week for almost 20 years, where I currently look at 124 different ways to race Comp - following your "S, M, A, N, T" format with a few more letters including Ncyl, Bore, Stroke, min Wt, Body Style and Index. I just added another way to run BB/AT last week. All of these "letters" are used to determine the minimum HP/cid required to run sixty under. I keep looking for an "easy" class . . . I can't find one anymore! But some are a little less "tough" than others.

I don't see how this "chart" can help the average fan in the grandstands. An idea I have suggested before to help the fans is to the change the index numbers displayed on the scoreboard. I just can't keep up with all the math for both lanes! When I sit in the stands at the races I calculate the left lane and Nitro Bill calculates the right lane . . . and we still get confused.

Why not drop all the indexes by a half second? That way if the racecar runs quicker than the index displayed on the scoreboard . . . it's a good run. If not . . . well you know the answer. Don't change the way CIC works . . . just move the thresholds. Simple, easy . . . and I could probably do the math for both lanes in my head. With this system the casual spectator would at least have a chance to figure out CIC. Just my two cents worth! :D

Patrick Hale
www.DragRacingPro.com
 
You realize you are asking an engineer and a lawyer for assistance in producing a concise understandable document??? :)


MrRich said:
I think if we can combine the brains of Patrick Hale and Steve Holloway, we can produce a concise document that is understandable.
Click to expand...
 
Patrick is right one the money about lowering the indexes .5!! It would make it soooo much easyier to show new fans how comp works and what is a good run and what is not. And it is one rule change that would not affect anybody in the class,it would only help to make it better to understand.
 
MrRich said:
Many of the posts on this site have to do with people fleeing the stands because they do not understand, or appreciating COMP. A lot of you know me; I’m the short old guy that helps Charlie Watson, D-4. I’ve been a racer since 68 and still ride my motorcycle in D-4.
I appreciate Comp, but am far from understanding all the possibilities. I may be the perfect dummy. If you can explain Comp to me, maybe others will also understand.
From reading and participating in this web site for the last couple of years I have learned a lot of things and met a lot of people. Some are extremely smart, others not. Some are wordsmiths, some are numbers people. The thing I’ve come to admire is common in America, the guy that makes $8.90 per hour can tell you if his paycheck is right after working 42-1/2 hours, but he will also tell you he doesn’t do math. In the Comp pits, the guy that can’t speak a complete sentence can explain the most detailed hidden rule and is an expert about HP/CI.
I f I have learned nothing else it is that pounds per cubic inch, in your category is king. Of course the corollary is HP per CI.
How about using this thread to educate Rich and create some sort of a chart, as I see it to explain the possible classes.
Let me jump right in and probably show my ignorance. First of course is the alphabet. Lets start with the most popular letter, I don’t even know the answer to that question, then set the CI limits, then the possible combos, one carb or two, auto or standard, S, M, A, N, T, …..etc..
If we can do one class and explain all the possibilities then maybe, via a flowchart we can expand this to all classes. Maybe even consolidate it on to a single sheet of paper that might be the flip side of a Hero card.
I don’t know if anyone will participate, but I think all things are possible. If you want people in the stands they have to understand the intricacies of the class. Ultimately we could create a new breed of drag race fans that are “Elitists” because they understand Comp. They would be the bleacher bums of the drag strip.
I think if we can combine the brains of Patrick Hale and Steve Holloway, we can produce a concise document that is understandable.
Click to expand...

Mr. Rich, that is a good idea, and Patrick Hale and Steve Holloway are definitely capable of producing such a document. However, the casual fan needs to have a basic understanding of Comp. before he/she attempts to learn the intricacies. As an analogy, you have to master basic math before you attempt to master algebra, geometry, and trigonometry. I understand all of the intricacies of Comp., so I guess I qualify as an "Elitist" fan; but it is not necessary to understand Comp. on my level in order to appreciate and enjoy it. Earlier this year the suggestion was made on this site to have Alan Rinehart or Bob Frey give a brief, concise explanation of Comp. before each qualifying session, and again before eliminations in order to explain CIC. In my opinion, that would be an excellent way to spread the word; Comp. is a truly great class, and the casual fan would embrace it if they only understood it.
 
It's funny, what Patrick said about doing the math on both lanes. I'm hung up on that too. Generally if the right lane is, say 9:14 and the right might be 8:72, I'll say in my head 8:64 & 9:22 will be good. But by the time I do all that, watch the run, then try to remember who was who, well after 16 pair about all I can do is name a few drivers that did well and say that 10 or 12 were -50, I think!
I totally agree with just dropping everything .50. No real rule change or damage to anybody, and easier to explain in the tower.
 
Looking strictly from the perspective of a casual fan sitting in the stands, Comp should be the easiest class that runs on an index or dial in to understand. First car to cross the finish line (assuming no foul) wins. Trying to explain why the first car to the finish line can lose in the other index or dial in classes can be seen as defeating the point of having a faster race car than your opponent.

CIC is another animal, but as long as the index hits during an event are reflected by showing each car's index on the scoreboards and staggering the tree according to the index differences, it doesn't change the fact that the first car to cross the finish line still wins, a real easy concept to understand. While the die-hard Comp fan might want to track CIC hits over the course of an event, I don't see it being very important to the casual fan as to being able to appreciate the class and the incredible diversity of the cars involved. Let the computers figure out the index changes (I do), and enjoy the racing (I do that too)! :)
 
I really think that we have made progress already. Let's look at it from the fan's perspective.
The easiest thing is take 50 off the indexes. Avoid all the intricacies of the permanent versus the -50+ penalty. Explain in vague terms that bigger motors have lower indexes and offer the avid fan a source for an understandable explaination of the rest of the rules.
Offer a simplified example, ( I'm not even capable of doing this ) that for example takes the alphabet and says an "A" auto, Modified, with two carbs raced a B, C, D, E, >> then the index would change. Of course you would need a "Typical" A, B, C, etc. to make this comparison.
We don't have to explain everything, just the main concepts?
 
As a person who now kind of feels that they understand comp (a little bit)- that did not come until a couple of years ago. I grew up at the race track and it wasn't until my cousin sat me down with a time slip and explained it to me (which he gave an explanation that any drunken idiot in the stands could understand), but it wasn't until then that i finally got it, & i don't know how you could explain that to the average fan without a time slip.

He took out the time slip & said - "ok, you see the right lane, nhra has determined that everything that is on his car and how it's built, that that car should be able to go down the quartermile in 7.50 seconds. The left lane and the combination of that car- it should go down the quartermile in 7.25 seconds. Because the one car is a quarter second faster than the other car- the slower car gets to leave a quarter of a second before the faster car to even it out. Now if the 7.50 car goes 6.99, now he has gone -.51 seconds under his index and for the next round, instead of the tree saying 7.50, it is going to say 7.49 for the race- so that is him taking a hit for one. if he went 6.89, now he has gone -.61 under taking a hit for eleven for the race and a permanent one. anything faster than -.60 is permanent so from now on at every race he goes to, it will say 7.49 instead of 7.50." I walked away going, "wow, i finally get it now."

Now everyone on this site knows all of this, but tell me, how is someone in the stands that is just an average drag racing fan going to understand that with the way the scoreboard is? I grew up out there and had no idea. It takes someone sitting you down telling you this to finally get it, and if you don't get that as the simple beginning basis, you can't really go on from there to even think about explaining different classes within comp. Comp is its own world until NHRA figures out a better way to explain that to the average fan. And for all of the math dummys out there, there is no way that they are going to get it. If NHRA isn't going to do anything else, maybe they can figure out a way to flash on the scoreboard how much you went under your index before they switch to the next pair. If nothing else, at least someone who doesn't really know anything about comp, but knows that a -.60 run was good, if they saw -.59 flash on the board, they could look at the person they are sitting with in the stands and comment- "wow, that was a good run for that car."

I don't know- just the opinion from someone who never really got it til just recently.

-Kim
 
Fact is, most fans probably don't understand comp, and they probably don't understand today's Bailout Bill in Washington.

The good news is that most fans go to the nationals to see (simple and understandable) heads-up pro racing, not comp. And, a higher percentage of the few fans that go to divisionals probably do "get it."

Such is drag racing, IMO.

projack said:
there is no way that they are going to get it. Kim
Click to expand...
 
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Steve Holloway said:
Fact is, most fans probably don't understand comp, and they probably don't understand today's Bailout Bill in Washington.

The good news is that most fans go to the nationals to see (simple and understandable) heads-up pro racing, not comp. And, a higher percentage of the few fans that go to divisionals probably do "get it."

Such is drag racing, IMO.
Click to expand...

You are right Steve, most fans don't understand Comp.; but, inevitably, when I use a pen and a piece of paper to explain it to a fan or fans in the stands at a National event it is clear to me that they do grasp the concept. Once that happens, as I have said repeatedly on this site, they can begin to enjoy and like Comp. because they finally have a basic understanding of it.
 
Bill is right about the fans.......... most, if not all, understand why one car leaves before the other.......... what most don't seem to understanding is the indexing system and the penalties that come with it........ they hear in the stands saying "Yeah, he won, but it will cost him"........ and that's when the questions start......... there needs to be a way for fans to have the information to understand the class..........

Now just imagine if they took .50 off all the indexes........ there would be some real good racing then........

And "HEY AL"!!!........ you could send all those sand bags to New Orleans and probably get a tax write off too......... just kidding Al........... NOT!!!!!!
 
Charlie - please don't mis-understand my suggestion to take a half second off every index. What I'm saying would not affect the racing at all - nothing. It would be exactly the same as today. The only difference would be that the number on the scoreboard is now when CIC starts.

For example, let's use D/ED. The index today is 7.99 and CIC starts at 7.48 (-0.51) and gets permanent at 7.38 (-0.61).

The new system would have the index at 7.49 and CIC again starting at 7.48 and permanent hits at 7.38 - no change! The only change is the number on the scoreboards for the fans to see. The big payoff for the fans is during qualifying - to easily see if someone make a great run - anything quicker than the number on the scoreboard. It will also be easier during eliminations to see when someone CIC's themselves - and by how much.

Patrick Hale
www.DragRacingPro.com
 
I think lowering the indexes .5 would help the class be understood alot better.Like Patrick said if that was done just about anybody in the stands could tell a good run from a bad one without doing a bunch of math.Just look at the scoreboard and see if the car went under the number.
 
I think we are making progress. When I first suggested this thread I never imagined the direction the solution would take. If it's about spectators, make it easier for the spectators to understand, then....if they stick around and ask questions about the many whys of the indexes, the answers can be handled one on one in the pits.
However, just because everyone may or may not agree, doesn't mean the powers will see any sense in a simple suggestion. Maybe we could enlist the help of some of our announcer fans to carry the message. Unk, are you listening?
 
S'plainin Comp

The concept of explanation is great, it's the execution that has stumbling blocks.....

From the announcers perspective there are several items that come into play. First, is the audience, LODRS or national event? Friday, Saturday Sunday?
Depending on event and day, your crowd will vary from knowledgable (die hard) racers (Friday-LODRS) to casual spectators that you MIGHT draw into the wonderful world of Comp if you can get them to pay attention (Sat-Sun @ a national event).
Second is time, the announcer might be able to do an explanation if the cars are being run @ a normal pace, but if the show is behind and the pace is a "quick tempo" the announcer would be hard pressed to work in an explanation between the pairs.
Third is the announcer. While Alan and Leo & Bob could probably handle the explanation on the national event level, there are numerous announcers that don't themselves understand the complexity of Comp....and you can't explain what you don't understand. Not knocking on any of my announcing cohorts, just telling it like it is. I LOVE the category and have been involved with it for several years...do I understand it all? ........ not as well as I would like to.
From my perspective, announcing Comp @ a LODRS event is all about letting the RACERS know what is going on, WHO is how far under or WHERE they are currently in qualifying. @ most LODRS events, the racers ARE the spectators, so you play to your primary audience.
Back when I worked the national events, I tried to explain the "high points" of Comp, but come Sunday, I also focused on the runs themselves and WHO won and how. A Sunday national event crowd you can entertain or confuse, I chose to try to entertain, but also provide what the racers needed to hear witout confusing "Joe spectator"
In my opinion, announcing handicap racing (Stock, SS, and Comp) on Sunday becomes a matter of announcing WHO won, WHO lost and a quick synopsis of how/why. Their dial/index on the scorboard that the spectator can see is the important number. What the racer is dialed under (Stk, SS) or what the index WAS just adds to the confusion as you are overloading them with numbers.

While I agree that Comp and all of the sportsman class's contain the best racing, understanding that "Joe Spectator" at a national event is primarily there for the nitro cars and the "show" you have to gather their attention when and how you can....and it's difficult to do.
Anybody has any feedback, I'm always ready to listen, as I've honed what/how I do based primarily on racers feedback, and will continue to do so as long as I'm announcing.

that's my .02,

Unk
 
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"s, M, A, N, T . . . "

Rich - I have been thinking about your "letters" idea . . . but it makes my head hurt! :confused: Give me another hint. :)

There are 96 classes in Comp, but my "chart" includes 124 ways to race. David Rampy runs a Bantam in A/EA, but you could use a door-car with a larger CID small-block or big-block engine if you like. Bantams, '23 Ts and door-cars all race in A/A, A/AA, A/AP, B/AA, D/EA etc. The "Altered" classes have many possible combinations - I remember Vinnie Deceglie running a Truck in A/A.

Tom Schaumbaugh got me to add a V-6 powered Bantam to my "chart" for BB/AT. Imagine a little Cadillac V-6 roadster next to Steve Matusek's Mustang . . . both BB/ATs with the same index on the scoreboards. Both turbos, V-8 vs. V-6, modern Mustang next to what? . . . explain that to the fan sitting next to you!

The dragster classes don't have these problems. But some Super-Mod racecars with driver's side mirrors have run in the heavier "Altered" classes this year.

The possible combinations are endless . . . and that is the true elegance and beauty of Comp! The competitors themselves set the standards for excellence in Competition Eliminator. That would be one of my messages to the fans and dropping the number on the scoreboard will make it easier to explain the racecars to them.

As an engineer . . . I focus a lot on the technical aspects of the racecar. But having had the privilege of racing some of the "greatest" drivers in Comp - it is really a humbling experience. You can hold the record and have the quickest car in the class and be the #1 qualifier at the event (and I have) . . . but it takes a great driver on both ends of the track to win an event (and I haven't). My hat's off to everyone that has ever won an event in Comp! Congratulations!

Patrick Hale
www.DragRacingPro.com
 
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Quick reply to Unk. First thanks for participating and I appreciate your situation that has as many variables as Comp.
The "message" that I was refering to is simply to carry the message to NHRA that your job would be easier, and the spectators experience enhanced if we just took 50 off the board.

To Patrick, I would be interested to see your chart. If you could please send me a private email.
Thanks,
Rich
 
TobyG said:
You realize you are asking an engineer and a lawyer for assistance in producing a concise understandable document??? :)
Click to expand...

And worse, there is an economist on this thread (and we learned last week what the country thinks of those guys)!
 
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