Use of SR-18 by Pro Stock

RamAirV

Member
Jun 28, 2011
86
29
18
Arizona
Interesting to listen to the commentary from Bruno Mansel during the NHRA show as regards to the problems Pro Stock teams have experienced with the Sunoco fuel. They also talked about the amount of testing that has taken place and implying how some teams have worn out engines on the dyno trying to make the fuel work.

This supports the comments of Nick Ferri in the YB Pro Stock thread about their issues with the fuel.

In a nutshell, anyone that says Pro Stock has not experienced any issues with the Sunoco fuel, are full of it!
 
Thank you, Sir... I've been blowing this horn for some time now... and my information has been provided by race fuel companies, race engine builders, and racers who have not actually swallowed the NHRA Kool-Aid.. I am not picking things out of the air..

I have provided information indicating that NHRA is concerned, and are investigating ways to satisfy race teams and engine builders, to keep the sport alive.. they just need the intestinal fortitude to pull the trigger..

Maybe the Pros finally going public will give them further encouragement..

Thanks for the post...
 
We are dumbest guys in pro stock and we haven't experinced anything anyone has said about that fuel yet. Yes I got some weaker fuel at the beginning but did my dynoing with it. Yes we dumped it in and lost around 13 average or so. Took about 8 pulls to get back to where our 25 power was. I have run and corrected to the best times ever on this new stuff. Current pro stock record is with this gas that person told me the same things about that fuel that nothing is wrong with it. Look if they made pump gas or E85 the new spec fuel your going to have to change some things.
 
Admittedly, Chris, some teams have a handle on SR-18.. most of those are the teams that have spent a lot of time with it.. the Comp teams that have done OK with it seem to be associated with Pro Stock engine builders, and are on a safe tune-up most of the time.. OR are the high dollar teams with their own dynos, or unlimited access to dynos..

What about the guys that can't spend thousands of dollars for dyno time, and are not being guided by Pro Stock type engine builders.. and don't even try to tell me that the drums for Pro Stock aren't hand picked, cause I watched it myself in Gainesville..

I won't deny that there are guys out there claiming that they are fine with it, but I will tell you, they would be better on C-25.. their time and money wasted trying to get their stuff working with SR-18, could have put them even farther ahead with C-25.. no one can tell me that they are getting the power improvements that they worked at all winter on SR-18.. if you tell me that you are 20 better than last year, I'll tell you that you would have been 30 better with C-25.. it is what it is..

And honestly, the biggest question is, is Pro Stock still actually using SR-18??.. because I have heard different on several occassions.. OR, maybe you guys are picking up cause you figured out how to cut it with the Kool-Aid..

The stuff is crap.. it will always be crap.. and if someone told you different, they are lying to you.. we are racing in June, and it has not been improved, or made consistent for the Comp ranks yet... Sunoco has had a year and a half at this, and most of the fuel flunked at E-Town.. except Pro Stock, of course..
 
Chris, I don't have a dog in this hunt but I saw it coming before the season started. The vaporization properties are not as good as C25, and was certain to throw a curve at anyone not expecting it. The classes with carb restrictions would be likely to have less issues as vaporization is better when the carb is more of a restriction. Classes like Pro Stock and Comp classes that do not have a restriction on carb size or number of carbs would have the most trouble, and It was very apparent early in the season. I spoke to several Pro Stock teams in Gainsville, and understand there was a meeting over the issues with the fuel. The biggest issue however wasn't the poorer vaporization, that can be compensated for. The big issue was the inconsistency from batch to batch. This may have been addressed in the Pro classes, but I would imagine there are still new cans of fuel floating around that don't match the specs and that can create issues for the Comp guys that are unlucky enough to get them. Set the timing up for a bad batch and then get one that won't handle the extra timing and you can hurt parts in a hurry. And being that you are usually at the top of the pack this year I wouldn't say you are even close to the dumbest in the class...

I have been building carbs on the side for a few years now. I have been fortunate enough to dyno quite a few carbs on BLP's inertia dyno with 8 O2's, and have seen the difference in distribution and power when the fuel is better vaporized. With two carbs or injection it's easier to correct distribution, the guys with singles are not as fortunate. All any of the guys want is a consistent fuel batch to batch to give them a fighting chance.
 
I learned just yesterday, from the Guru of Fuel, that when placed in a sealed test tube, and visually monitored, in less than two weeks in a controlled environment SR-18 began to change color, and become cloudy.. it also seemed that the fuel began to seperate in the test tube, indicating a probable problem with the lead content.. now I'm not the scientist, but when I see something seperating in a jar in my refrigerator, it gets dumpsterized, cause I know it's not good, even if I shake it up a bit..

Now, lets apply this knowledge to your race car, fuel system, and fuel storage.. if you drain your carbs after every race, and pull your fuel bowls before the next race, which we rarely do except for jet changes, you will find a dried residue in the bowls left by the fuel.. on the next start up, that residue is trying to run through your metering blocks.. if you leave this fuel in your pump and tank, and the fuel begins to break down, you show up at the next event with bad fuel that you are only going to add questionable fuel to.. SOOOOOO, do we now have to completely drain and flush our fuel systems after every event to use SR-18, OR, should we just not be using SR-18..

While it has been recommended not to leave C-25, or any race fuel, in your tank, pump, or lines for an extended period, like over the winter, I sometimes have not followed these instructions, and have not been the victim of any fuel related issues while using VP Race Fuels..

This is new information that I believe everyone should be privileged to.. and I believe that we are currently being mandated to use a product that even the manufacturor doesn't know about..
 
This post is not intended to slam Sunoco :D.

Spoke with a rep while at the Houston divisional. He confirmed what many have stated about the fuel being refined instead of being synthetic. He did elaborate on a couple new points, though. One being that the Sunoco fuel - a refined fuel, unlike VP that's a synthetic fuel - relies greatly on the raw materials used to produce it. He stated that, "If the oil or any other raw materials is off, then everyone's off." I took this to mean the entire industry that uses that same supply of materials. This could mean just about any lubricant or fuel. He noted that's where VP has its advantages; it's synthetic, and doesn't falter in that area of the manufacturing process. He made it clear that the fuel is made the same way each time, and is made in batches that are very huge. There's no several hundred gallon batches here. Think enormous. So there is the potential that there may be variation from one manufacturing period to the other just with the ingredients making the difference. I can see that. It's like having a new shipment of chromoly tubing that for some reason sucks to weld with. There's many examples.

Therefore, I don't see it getting any different so long as the process is refining. He also noted that, "So long as the fuel is made during the same bulk refining, it should all be the same - and this may be the case for a long period of time since there is so much of the fuel made at one time." The way I take this is that if you have a drum that is say, dated several months earlier than what's at the track, then since it may not have been made at the same time as the track's fuel supply there is the potential of it coming up a little different being as you may be relying on another supply of raw materials that could be a little different.

In conclusion, synthetic fuels circumvent some of the inconsistencies of nature as much as possible, and refined fuels still has that variable there. That's what I've learned.
 
Jeremy I guess it depends on what kind of Dinosaur the oil is made from LOL

I have a question for Chris and any other Pro Stock racer watching. Given the opportunity to run VP C-25 again, would you stay with the Sunoco fuel?? I'm guessing if they are honest the the answer is no.
 
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Like I stated above I have been faster on the sr-18 than the 25. So I would go back and knowing what I know now and do a side by side test and run down the track. I have a feeling the Sunoco will be faster. As far as the test tube deal. They tell you straight up not to put it in a clear container as light destroyes it which it did. And the world says pro stock guys aren't open to change and have mandatory EFI. Hope that never happens in comp it will be the end for sure. Try having a fuel change and tire change thrown on you at the same time while trying to resolve other issues.

Yes 25 was a bunch of chemicals blended to be gas. Yes it was batched in several locations to my knowledge. Yes it had issues too and was lacking some different chemicals after 07.

SR-18 has a real base from gas not bunch of chemicals. It has different specs than does 25 which takes different stuff for the engine. You can't just put e85 in an engine or Q-16 in and think hell it will be good if you been running something else. Sr-18 from what I understand is made at one place comes from same tap. Put on tankers and carried to distributors. This is where the problem lies for most of what I think people are saying for in consistent. Yes my first drums where weak but I didn't have issues like everyone keeps on about. The distributors drum it themselves and think that may cause some problems.
 
I will throw out my .02. To this point, personally, I haven't had any real issues with it going down the track. We made a couple of small changes based off of what transpired on the dyno and have had no problems. I think the real issue that myself and many others are having is with the testing and the good/no good surprises at fuel check. I had a 5g can that was fine at the division race at Maple Grove, and 2 weeks later was told "no good don't bring it back" after Q1 at the national event in Etown. A can that was stored sealed in the trailer out of any sunlight for 11 days. Many others had the same issue. Others were even getting fuel off the truck at the track that still was "on the edge" of passing. I don't know about everyone else, but I don't want to continue to have to put this $15/g fuel in my lawnmower or golf cart. Based on chatter at the track, there is a lot of blame going around on both sides, and many are wondering if the testing methods and equipment are consistent and/or properly calibrated.
 
I will throw out my .02. To this point, personally, I haven't had any real issues with it going down the track. We made a couple of small changes based off of what transpired on the dyno and have had no problems. I think the real issue that myself and many others are having is with the testing and the good/no good surprises at fuel check. I had a 5g can that was fine at the division race at Maple Grove, and 2 weeks later was told "no good don't bring it back" after Q1 at the national event in Etown. A can that was stored sealed in the trailer out of any sunlight for 11 days. Many others had the same issue. Others were even getting fuel off the truck at the track that still was "on the edge" of passing. I don't know about everyone else, but I don't want to continue to have to put this $15/g fuel in my lawnmower or golf cart. Based on chatter at the track, there is a lot of blame going around on both sides, and many are wondering if the testing methods and equipment are consistent and/or properly calibrated.


That's basically what I'm saying I had problems with it passing fuel check to when I was using my first drums. They told me it was no good and they where working on how they check it, it didn't have problems going down the track. These other guys are bitching about it and calling it crap cause they can't go down the track with it. In the end it's two separate deals. I seen 25 do the same thing before, we all have if we didn't handle it properly but the stuff went down the track and bounce fuel check. But Don your right it shouldn't go bad in a seal drum unless the drum has issues.
 
OK.. OK.. the deal was supposed to be an equal to or better than race fuel.. FAIL.. can never be equal to, because you are trying to compare a petroleum based fuel to a hydrocarbon based fuel.. CAN'T BE DONE..

We can talk about vaporization, atomization, or whatever zation you wanna bring up.. SR-18 is not equal to, or better than C-25.. if it was, we would all be jetting up, NOT DOWN, or taking timing out, NOT IN.. and we wouldn't be kicking the crap out of this dead horse, to make it stick out its tongue..

SR-18 doesn't travel well, and has a shelf life that expires in 10 to 14 days after being produced, drummed, and shipped.. YOU AIN'T EVEN GETTING WHAT THEY MAKE!!.. and it's not the drums, it's the product.. it doesn't last in a sealed test tube in a controlled enviroment for more than two weeks with a test tube of C-25 of the same age right next to it.. wouldn't you think that if a test is performed, it would be a proper, comparitive, test??

And just a news flash.. insider information says that all C-25 is produced, drummed, and sealed in brand new lined drums at the facility in San Antonio, Texas.. so if you got some from different locations, you probably got somebody's left-overs..

Chris, you are running fast right now, and going rounds.. I applaude you for your hard work and results.. but why is it that the guys that are struggling, all seem to be blaming the fuel??.. or is the fuel the most popular excuse among engine builders and tuners for not making power??.. I, that would be ME, am going with the fuel..

If you ARE running SR-18, and believe that you have a handle on it without breakage, that's great.. BUT I believe that NHRA has been duped, racers are paying the price in performance and parts, and Comp should be given the option of running VP products if they choose..
 
It's pretty clear that SR-18 is here to stay.. If NHRA was going to do something about it they would have by now. Plus, with a lot of racers saying they are not having problems or have adjusted to the new fuel pretty much eliminates the chance of getting to run C-25 again.

It is what it is and we have to live with it OR quit.... I choose to learn the new fuel and move on. Am I happy about it? No but I got worse things to worry about.
 
I'm sorry, Mark, but I have to disagree.. if the fuel was here to stay, why would a petition be sent around the Comp pits at E-Town, a National Event, asking for all Comp drivers to sign up to be able to have C-25 as an accepted optional fuel??.. I'm not sure that there was a Comp team on the property that didn't sign it... I am curious as to if the Pro Stock guys saw the petition.. I'm sure of a few teams that would sign it, but most of them are NHRA's candy-asses.. they might drink SR-18 if it was the color of Kool-Aid..

Now I may be talking out of school here, but this petition appeared at the conclusion of an important meeting involving several Comp issues, and involving Graham Light.. the rumor was that NHRA is sitting on the fence on the fuel issue, and wanted input, and support, from the class..

So the question now becomes, was the petition legit??.. and what were the results of the petition??.. OR, shall we go for Door #3, NHRA was just throwing a "feel good" gesture at us, and blowing smoke up our asses??
 
If the $ numbers I'm hearing are correct, the Sunoco fuel is not going anywhere. If that's the case, then the sole issue should be that of making the batches all be able to pass fuel check. And not for just one race. If it continues to be an issue from race to race, then we should be able to purchase by the gallon at every event.
 
I hope I'm wrong and NHRA does the right thing and allows comp to run C-25 but I think I have a better chance winning lotto tonight... (I did buy a few tickets..lol..):D
 
SR-18 Fuel

First off I have to say talking to NHRA that this fuel is here to stay. In my opinion this fuel is very usable, however a person has to figure out what his or her car wants to make it fast! As using Pro Stock as a baseline, the numbers we have been seeing this year are excellent and could not be obtained with fuel that is shit. There are a bunch of Comp racers that are running very good with this fuel because they worked on there combination and have figured it out.

The beginning of the year we ran this fuel on David Nickens dyno and we figured that it was maybe 2 or 3 HP down from C-25. When we got to the track for the first time (Vegas National Event) I found out different. What the dyno tells you about this fuel and what this fuel requires when you are running down the track are two different things! This race we had problems and didn't run that well, so we WORKED on it. The next race it was better and after that we found it to be at least as quick as VP-25. We may not be the fastest car in the planet, however we have been making very good runs to late and I think the fuel is actually helping us with our combination.

In my opinion if most of the people on this site (the ones with a car) were to work on there shit as much as they complain about this fuel they would be a rocket. Again this fuel is here to stay and people need to work on it and quit bitching about everything we have. I personally believe if we don't quit bitching about everything that's going on with our eliminator we will be sending each other little notes on this damn computer and not race because we will have no eliminator to race in.

Clint Sallee 514 B/D
 
First off I have to say talking to NHRA that this fuel is here to stay. In my opinion this fuel is very usable, however a person has to figure out what his or her car wants to make it fast! As using Pro Stock as a baseline, the numbers we have been seeing this year are excellent and could not be obtained with fuel that is shit. There are a bunch of Comp racers that are running very good with this fuel because they worked on there combination and have figured it out.

The beginning of the year we ran this fuel on David Nickens dyno and we figured that it was maybe 2 or 3 HP down from C-25. When we got to the track for the first time (Vegas National Event) I found out different. What the dyno tells you about this fuel and what this fuel requires when you are running down the track are two different things! This race we had problems and didn't run that well, so we WORKED on it. The next race it was better and after that we found it to be at least as quick as VP-25. We may not be the fastest car in the planet, however we have been making very good runs to late and I think the fuel is actually helping us with our combination.

In my opinion if most of the people on this site (the ones with a car) were to work on there shit as much as they complain about this fuel they would be a rocket. Again this fuel is here to stay and people need to work on it and quit bitching about everything we have. I personally believe if we don't quit bitching about everything that's going on with our eliminator we will be sending each other little notes on this damn computer and not race because we will have no eliminator to race in.

Clint Sallee 514 B/D

Well said!....Not bad for a plumber......lmao!
 
You have to understand most of the chemicals used in the makeup of gasoline all have nearly identical BTU. This means they have the same performance potential. It will vary from engine to engine, however a fuel that vaporizes better has a better chance of burning more completely in all cylinders. However the biggest issues with the fuel are the batch inconsistencies that have created HP losses and the ability of sealed containers to pass fuel tech. Doesn't give anyone a warm fuzzy feeling...
 
I'm sorry, Mark, but I have to disagree.. if the fuel was here to stay, why would a petition be sent around the Comp pits at E-Town, a National Event, asking for all Comp drivers to sign up to be able to have C-25 as an accepted optional fuel??.. I'm not sure that there was a Comp team on the property that didn't sign it... I am curious as to if the Pro Stock guys saw the petition.. I'm sure of a few teams that would sign it, but most of them are NHRA's candy-asses.. they might drink SR-18 if it was the color of Kool-Aid..

Now I may be talking out of school here, but this petition appeared at the conclusion of an important meeting involving several Comp issues, and involving Graham Light.. the rumor was that NHRA is sitting on the fence on the fuel issue, and wanted input, and support, from the class..

So the question now becomes, was the petition legit??.. and what were the results of the petition??.. OR, shall we go for Door #3, NHRA was just throwing a "feel good" gesture at us, and blowing smoke up our asses??

Charlie, can you provide more info on the petition? Who started it and what you heard about it? I know you and I have butted heads on this topic, but I'm curious if it's a "feel good" issue or a real consideration. Inquiring minds want to know.....

Chuck Haubiel