Charlotte Index Inconsistencies

Watching Round one of Charlotte Comp on NHRA.tv and don't understand the following:

-TWO FS/SM paired up, but they kept Alexandra's Personal Index (PI) of 8.48 - I thought when cars of the same class line up, it goes back to index for both for that category? (Should have been 8.49)

-Also - I thought they qualified off of PI. However, in round one, Brogdon's index changed from 7.62 to 7.57. 7.57 seems like that SHOULD be his PI after the last D4 race.

The answer to either will contradict each other, because Alexandra was on the Q sheets with his aforementioned 8.48.

These kind of inconsistencies drive me nuts, because as a follower of Comp racing for 35 years, if I'm questioning my understanding of the rules, how does a new fan figure it out?

 

Interestingly, they re-did the ladder with Brogdon's correct PI in use, and re-ran the pairings affected, Brogdon, Alexandra, Libersher and Hartman. #'s 9 & 10 swapped under the revised ladder, so re-ran pairings 4 v 9 and 5 v 10. I assume PI was not updated until AFTER qualifying and that was why the mistake was made?
Would have assumed they could update a database following an event to keep track - but Brogdon's PI at D4 event the prior week was 7.60, so is it manual at each event to update a PI? Seems like a flaw in the system with so many events going on around the country?

 

Easy way to fix these mistakes from happening…. Get rid of personal index

 

Yeah.What he said.

 

Yeah, what him and him said, and probably a few more!!!
Wonder what the percentage of actual driver's racing now agree??

Would be a lot easier for an old brain to work

 

I ask damn near every comp racer at the track when I go to a race and I’d say it’s around 85-90% would like to get rid of PI
And all agree that we’d still have CIC at a race but come Monday you’re back to the class index.

 

so joey if you go back to the old way its ok for some one else to wreck your index? just asking lynn

 

Like I've admitted in the past, I liked the PI idea, and thought it might bring some good racers back to the track.. I don't believe that anyone came back, and PI has proven to be a deterent to other good racers by rendering them un-competitive.. it's time for PI to be gone..

 

I would still have it that any run faster than -710 would lower the class index unless it’s mineshaft than any run faster then -760 would lower class index.
I know a few guys that want to get into comp but PI is pushing them away as they are afraid if they whack their index they do not have the money to buy another engine to change classes.
Anyone that raced the doorslammer nationals and the racers revival that had this concept of no PI had an absolute blast and loved it. I guarantee that all 16 guys that race the Indy specialty race this year regardless of the money will say how much fun it was.
Take a look at D4 during qualifying, they are running it WFO and people love it, the fans they get actually understand it and don’t question why guys are shutting off at 1000 ft.

 

This is a little off of the subject,but why don't CIC hits go up .05 in minshaft as do personal and class?

 

There is a reason most spectators call it "Complicated Eliminator" .

 

Why do you gotta go there greg and make a wonderful point.

 

I think to help out this system and make it a little more put on us instead of just complaining about it (when the tower messes it up) why don't we put it on ourselves to use the comp committee members like we should I mean they took the position and they could have the list of all of us that are at each event go to their pit not them come around before Q1 and we give them our current personal index and once that's done they take it to the tower and instead of them having to look on the list which during back to back races they may not have the current information. I mean it's not rocket science on their part but it's not on ours either. You mess up when you give your index to the rep then it's on you to be DQd from the event or?.

Just my thoughts i personally don't mind the PI system and if you're down 10 and don't like it then how about the guy who hasn't hit his? Why should he now have to go to the lowest PI if that's the end of the deal if we get rid of it? I know some may not agree but that's just my thoughts and we'll I don't just love this class I am this class! Dad was running it when I was born and I'll be 50 this year!

If there are guys that don't want to get in because of PI I'd like to know what is their legitimate reason.

 

Guys and Gals,

Can we bring some logic to this conversation and please stop with the straw man arguments?

First, "I know a few guys that want to get into comp but PI is pushing them away as they are afraid if they whack their index they do not have the money to buy another engine to change classes."

Now, this has nothing to do with how the Personal Index system works. This would, in fact, still be the exact same consequence for any racer who hits his class index in the Pre-PI era. Having a system based on Personal Index does not relieve you, yourself, from responsibility of consequences to the index on your scoreboard.

Another argument I hear, "Because of PI I am slower than RACER X in my class even tho I ran quicker on the track. That's not fair."

Well, let's say you and RACER X are paired up on race day. Now, you race heads up off the National Index and any disadvantage you had by having a more difficult PI becomes your advantage as the quicker car. Again, this would still be applicable to the Pre-PI era. Yes, the one difference is qualifying position, but should there not be some penalty for using your index? Is that not what the system is supposed to do?

To say that PI is too complicated and thus should be eliminated on that alone is laughable. We've seen at least two instances this year where the common practice of CIC between rounds was innocently mishandled and outcomes of races were affected. Should we just eliminate CIC altogether because it's difficult? Or, as Clint suggests, should we, the racers, take it upon ourselves to make sure our indexes and CIC is correct before and during the event? We can do it. We have done it. Sometimes, yes, mistakes will be made. All we can do is better prepare so those mistakes don't happen with regularity.

Now here is how PI actually works for the BENEFIT OF THE CLASS.

RACER Y goes to Florida in February or March. More power to him. But, he goes -65 to -70 to win a few rounds or better yet bring home a Wally or two. That's great. Some would say its well worth it. But with PI involved RACERS A, B, and C waiting for the 24" snow drifts to melt aren't saddled with a crippling index hit that causes them not to bring their cars out once the Midwest summer weather arrives.

The Personal Index system does not change how those who race early and often are affected by their own performance. What it does is protect those who can't or don't race in great conditions from getting slower while at home working just as hard as everyone else to stay competitive.

Is there a perfect system, no there can't be. Our class is too grand and too diverse. But the way this system allows you to sit down at the breakfast table on an early spring Sunday morning and not be worried that you might be down a tenth by dinner should not be lost in this discussion.

The truth about PI should and would not deter any new racers from coming out and joining the fun. By all means let's race!

 

Finally

 

Matt... well said. Its a balancing act in Comp to keep racing fair.

1. If we do get rid of Personal Indexes... what is proposed we do with people that have personal indexes? Really the only fair thing is to set the permanent class index at the fastest personal index for any given class.

2. The complicated part of Comp (pre-PI) is we have one class index .. but tons of different conditions that class can race in. The other smart way to do would be to have each race have an all classes index shift based on density altitude/weather. But you would have to get consensus on what that formula would be/when it would get measured.....etc etc. Probably the fairest thing, but really tough to implement.

 

There is something lost in all of this from the first post. It is, in the end, the racer's responsibility to know his index. It is also his responsibility to make sure that index is being utilized properly, whether it be on the qualifying sheet or displayed on the boards for eliminations. I know for a fact that EVERYONE looks at the qualifying sheet and knows where they qualified and who they will run.
I think whether or not you agree with PI, or how it is implemented is completely moot in this circumstance. If you look at the Q sheet and your index (or one of your competitor's indexes, I know we all know most of the other people's indexes along with our own....) is incorrect, you tell the officials. If you go to the burnout box and yours (or your competitor's) index is incorrect, you tell the official.
All of this is avoidable, easily.

 

We came back, with 2 cars.....

 

And how will they feel when they are sitting home and lose a nickel on the old system when they haven't rolled the car out of the trailer for the season yet? They're still going to need to spend the money if that happens. PI allows you to control your own destiny for the first tenth. If you want to take a few to win first round at a division race, by all means. It hurts just you, not 3 or 4 others sitting home on any given weekend.

 

I didn’t say anything about going back to the old system.