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Let's Explain Comp

Bob Unkefer said:
The concept of explanation is great, it's the execution that has stumbling blocks.....

From the announcers perspective there are several items that come into play. First, is the audience, LODRS or national event? Friday, Saturday Sunday?
Depending on event and day, your crowd will vary from knowledgable (die hard) racers (Friday-LODRS) to casual spectators that you MIGHT draw into the wonderful world of Comp if you can get them to pay attention (Sat-Sun @ a national event).
Second is time, the announcer might be able to do an explanation if the cars are being run @ a normal pace, but if the show is behind and the pace is a "quick tempo" the announcer would be hard pressed to work in an explanation between the pairs.
Third is the announcer. While Alan and Leo & Bob could probably handle the explanation on the national event level, there are numerous announcers that don't themselves understand the complexity of Comp....and you can't explain what you don't understand. Not knocking on any of my announcing cohorts, just telling it like it is. I LOVE the category and have been involved with it for several years...do I understand it all? ........ not as well as I would like to.
From my perspective, announcing Comp @ a LODRS event is all about letting the RACERS know what is going on, WHO is how far under or WHERE they are currently in qualifying. @ most LODRS events, the racers ARE the spectators, so you play to your primary audience.
Back when I worked the national events, I tried to explain the "high points" of Comp, but come Sunday, I also focused on the runs themselves and WHO won and how. A Sunday national event crowd you can entertain or confuse, I chose to try to entertain, but also provide what the racers needed to hear witout confusing "Joe spectator"
In my opinion, announcing handicap racing (Stock, SS, and Comp) on Sunday becomes a matter of announcing WHO won, WHO lost and a quick synopsis of how/why. Their dial/index on the scorboard that the spectator can see is the important number. What the racer is dialed under (Stk, SS) or what the index WAS just adds to the confusion as you are overloading them with numbers.

While I agree that Comp and all of the sportsman class's contain the best racing, understanding that "Joe Spectator" at a national event is primarily there for the nitro cars and the "show" you have to gather their attention when and how you can....and it's difficult to do.
Anybody has any feedback, I'm always ready to listen, as I've honed what/how I do based primarily on racers feedback, and will continue to do so as long as I'm announcing.

that's my .02,

Unk
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Bob, my suggestion was for Alan, Bob, or Leo to give a brief, concise explanation, without mentioning CIC, before each qualifying session at a National event, not between pairs. Even though most fans in attendance on Thurs., (Weds. and Thurs. at Indy), are hardcore fans; not all are, I have explained Comp. to those near me in the stands on those days on more than one occasion. Then before each elimination round, give an explanation including CIC. Hopefully, this would accomplish 2 things; the fan could grasp the difference between qualifying and eliminations, and it would simplify the learning process because it would be presented in 2 separate parts.
 
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I know what you're saying Patrick....... and it's not a bad idea for those who already understand what's going on........ but for the average fan that shows up to watch cars go fast, wouldn't that be just more numbers on the board that they wouldn't understand???.......

Lower the actual indexes......... no more hits........ no more clicking...... no more hard braking....... probably less accidents........ real racing to the stripe......
 
display

i like the changing the index principle, but i still think the scoreboard should reflect how much under whatever the index is. that's the ET for comp. how much under is the standard for the class, yet it's not displayed. a 7.00 may be a world record, run of the year for a D/D but a really slow run for an A/D. a casual fan might think otherwise. if the fan could see ov/un index...would go a long, long way.

nhra is interested in making a 'comp explained' spot on the motel 6 vision along with the other sportsman classes. stay tuned...
 
In view of the previous post by a Comp Buzz big wig, I call for a two minute time out for rules review. Will said "The NHRA is interested in doing something". I consider this a complete breach of blog rules by totally changing the subject in the midst of a perfectly resonable discussion.
Well, if the subject has been changed, I will weigh in. I can't remember the last time the NHRA was interested in anything but the ga.......... I think I'll go take my medication before I say something out loud that everyone thinks.
Let's drop the scoreboard by 50.
Rich
 
HELLO
Can someone explain Comp to me!
Better yet..

WHY !!!!!!!!!

my joke
as always
arnie:)
 
Arnie,
I can only think of three reasons why to explain Comp.
#1, I'm tired of subtracting 50 from the scoreboard and trying to remember which driver did what.
#2 to appease the people that think there is no one in the stands because they don't understand. This is the same group of people that don't watch Comp. because of the red lights. I have limmited knowledge and attend D-4, with occasional visits to Florida. In D-4, there always seems to be a Saturday crowd in Memphis and Ennis. I couldn't tell you why, just more people.
On Sunday, I don't care, its all about game. If they are there I don't notice.
Oh yes #3, if you already watch this magic show you are just waiting for the next trick.
Rich
 
Patrick Hale said:
Charlie - please don't mis-understand my suggestion to take a half second off every index. What I'm saying would not affect the racing at all - nothing. It would be exactly the same as today. The only difference would be that the number on the scoreboard is now when CIC starts.

For example, let's use D/ED. The index today is 7.99 and CIC starts at 7.48 (-0.51) and gets permanent at 7.38 (-0.61).

The new system would have the index at 7.49 and CIC again starting at 7.48 and permanent hits at 7.38 - no change! The only change is the number on the scoreboards for the fans to see. The big payoff for the fans is during qualifying - to easily see if someone make a great run - anything quicker than the number on the scoreboard. It will also be easier during eliminations to see when someone CIC's themselves - and by how much.

Patrick Hale
www.DragRacingPro.com
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I just read the 3 pages of this thread and it is interesting to note, that very few current racers commented. Taking .5 sec. off all the indexes has been debated before.

From a pure fan standpoint, to simplify the complexities of Comp. " that car has a bigger number on the scoreboard, cause he has a smaller motor, so he gets a head start and in a perfect world they both meet at the finish line." One car wins cause he did a better job with his combo and I don't think the numbers on the scoreboard are important to the fan, one gets a headstart is the only thing that would matter, in understanding the numbers. What does matter to the fans is "why did that car shut off ?" and to that point rests the validity of taking .5 sec. off all the indexes.

Taking .5 off the indexes does not take into consideration, the CIC system and the reasons for it. The average racer has a chance with the CIC in place, take it away and the dominant cars will be more dominant than ever. From a pure Comp racer and the reason you run Comp, taking .5 off brings back flat on the floor racing to the finish line, which was the way it used to be, but who wants 10 cars in the country winning 90% of the races....no one.

So where does that leave us...the fans vs. the racers, taking .5 off for entirely different reasons, no common ground here. Understanding Comp vs. racing in Comp are 2 different animals and the fan base, that understands Comp, will always be difficult.

Last time this was debated...the .5 off....I was all for it and still am, but the CIC system does work and I would have to think, removing it essentially, would hurt car count and we all know we can't have that. I may be wrong on that and if I am, racing to the finish line would be a dream come true.
 
Rob, Charlie (others?) - I must be doing a bad job of explaining the half second off the index scoreboard idea. It doesn't affect the way CIC works or car counts or racing to the stripe in any way. It just changes the number on the scoreboard during qualifying and eliminations.

Instead of the #1 qualifier being -0.693 under at Memphis, Patterson would have been -0.193 under (still a great run!). He would still of hit the index for 0.05 seconds in the 3rd round. The only change would be showing 7.86 on the scoreboard instead of 8.36. Nothing about the racing would be any different.

Patrick Hale
www.DragRacingPro.com
 
Patrick Hale said:
Rob, Charlie (others?) - I must be doing a bad job of explaining the half second off the index scoreboard idea. It doesn't affect the way CIC works or car counts or racing to the stripe in any way. It just changes the number on the scoreboard during qualifying and eliminations.

Instead of the #1 qualifier being -0.693 under at Memphis, Patterson would have been -0.193 under (still a great run!). He would still of hit the index for 0.05 seconds in the 3rd round. The only change would be showing 7.86 on the scoreboard instead of 8.36. Nothing about the racing would be any different.

Patrick Hale
www.DragRacingPro.com
Click to expand...
So if I do understand you, Pat, the "amount" under would not be displayed, rather the amount over, after taking .5 off....if the run was not out of or in the CIC range. This may help the fans interpretation of Comp indexes, hence lifting etc. but the racers would probably prefer to see the index in both lanes to be the same as what they read in the Nat'l Dragster.

So you are not for the -5 off the indexes, you are proposing -5 on the scoreboard, to simplify the math. I'm not so sure I see it as simplier,
different, but not easier.

Do you think the fan base understands the loss of a bracket race.....cause he ran "too fast", I don't think so or why all the Super catagories appear to break 10 ft. out, then fix themselves 500 ft. later when the throttle stop comes off.

Comp does need to be understood as a no breakout (can't go too fast to loose) and no throttle stop required, make as much power as you can....class, but it is going to be the gear head techno-fan that is going to make the effort to do so. Ma and Pa will continue to think we are all crazy.

I just thought of a perfect way to get "all" the fans to understand Comp....in every detail....allow betting on them. Nothing could be more complicated than the betting system in place for horse racing, but that little old lady sitting in the corner, smoking cigarettes, can explain it to you in every way. Funny how that works in life.....we got the solution to understanding Complicated Eliminator, " oh, that's the class you can bet on, I'll explain it to you."
 
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Rob - Let me try this one more time. Instead of J/A having an index of 8.40, take a half second off to get 7.90. This is the new index and this is the index on the scoreboard during qualifying and eliminations and the index listed in National Dragster and used for all the qualifying sheets, etc. - everywhere.

Nitro Bill and I are sitting in the grandstands during qualifying, you pull up and we see 7.90 and knowing that you have a fast car we expect you to go a little quicker than 7.90. You unload a great 7.790 and we turn to each other and say 0.11 under - a great pass! We can handle this math. No other number shows up on the scoreboard, only your ET and MPH. Joe Noname is in the other lane with an index of 8.33 but runs 8.652 - we shrug and look back at the starting line for the next pair.

The next day you and Joe Noname pull up for 1st round of eliminations. The scoreboard shows 7.90 in your lane and 8.33 in the other. No red lights and you run Joe Noname down and blip the throttle a few times and 8.024 comes up on the scoreboard. We yell "great race Rob and no CIC hit". It's all so very easy to do the math.

2nd round comes along and you have Dan Fletcher - this should be great! 7.90 in your lane and 8.16 in Fletcher's. A great side by side race all the way to the finish line - nobody lifts. The scoreboard comes up 7.820 and 8.040, that's .08 under for you and .12 under for Fletcher, both CIC penalties - pretty easy math.

And Nitro Bill yells out "Fletcher just lost .02 permanent!" But with your better light you are on to the next round down .08. The scoreboard will show 7.82 for you in the 3rd round . . . The only change is that your ET's are always going to be a lot closer to the number on the scoreboad. And this will make it easier for the fans to do the math and understand Comp.

Patrick Hale
www.DragRacingPro.com
 
I agree with Patrick,this needs to be done. It will not change the racing one bit but will sure make it easyier to show people what a good run is or is not.

To be a player you have to be .5 under,so there is no reason not to lower the indexes.
 
general fans

i agree, this would make for a very simple explanation for the announcers....

"The index on the scoreboard is what NHRA feels the car should run based on the combination. First guy to the finish line wins...."

That would simplify the class for 80% of the fans at a national event.

Perhaps change the name of the CIC system to the "Competition Handicap Control or System"

Golf handicaps are mainstream enough that people will be able to relate. The announcer can explain the general concept quick.

"If the car runs quicker than their index (perhaps we should drop the word index and call it handicap), their handicap gets adjusted..."

That should get the general handicap/index cic point across in terminology the layman fan can relate to.

If the announcer gets more time, they can explain it a little more as the round goes on.

The system will be the same, the math easier, just a lot easier to explain.

I honestly can't tell you exactly how a golf handicap or bowling handicap works to the "T," but I understand the concept. We don't need fans to know 100% of the system, just enough they can follow the racing with interest, and half ass know whats going on. The terminology can be as confusing as the system itself.

It just may intrigue someone enough to learn more.....then you have another lifelong fan of comp.
 
Will,
I think thats a great place to start. However, you may have opened a new can of worms.

I used to golf, a lot. It's probably been 8 years but I think I remember the very unusual rule for establishing a handicap, and it may have changed, or maybe my brain is having a senior moment.

As I remember it was 96% of the best 10 of your last 20 rounds. How's that for crativity. But the new can of worms is that your handicap was based on the course rating. If your handicap was set on an easy course, and say it was 15, then you went to a tougher course with a higher index, your handicap might be 17.

The worms, are the best part, and part of other threads. If altitude is a factor the "track" rating might be more or less.

Yes a golf handicap is a perfect example of how complicated you can make something.

Am I just remembereing the handicap system wrong?

Rich
 
I like Patrick's idea-take a half second off the index and start CIC when you run a hundredth or more under the index. And my experience is that Will is right in terms of the use of the word handicap-I've always been able to explain CIC in a minute or less to anyone with a pulse by using the golf and bowling handicap analogies.
 
Why not use the word nat record instead off index . When John Doe run .50 under the index why not say .50 under nat record . A lot of fans don`t know what index means but would understand nat record . Then when somebody hits the index he would be the new record holder.
 
comp 670 said:
I agree with Patrick,this needs to be done. It will not change the racing one bit but will sure make it easyier to show people what a good run is or is not.

To be a player you have to be .5 under,so there is no reason not to lower the indexes.
Click to expand...
Your point is a good one, Mark, "you have to be at least .5 under to be competitive", so Pat's system is easier to understand and makes for better racing....and these are all good reasons to do it. Our rep's should table this idea and get some response from the current Comp racers. I know polls are not liked much, but let's poll this one, Will, just for fun.
 
Rob,
I agree that removing .5 has a certain appeal, and, if it will make comp more popular, I'm for it. However, judging by the lack of breadth of posts on this thread, it's questionable whether or not even 50% of the membership will agree with it.

Proposed rule changes often get shelled harder than the Iraqi army in Desert Storm. However, this is not like most other proposed changes.
 
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Thats the one thing about this change.It will not affect any racer in any way.If you had a .5 or .2 or even a .7 under car you will still be at the same advantage or disadvatage as before. The average fan will just be able to grasp whats going on better.
 
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